Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

All about acoustics. This is your new home if you already have a studio or other acoustic space, but it isn't working out for you, sounds bad, and you need to fix it...
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norg
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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#1

Postby norg » Fri, 2025-Feb-21, 14:28

I know this wall of text has to be a dummy question and I did search but failed to find anything similar. Please forgive me if it's a dead horse :horse: I'm also making some assumptions on books and threads I've read so far and am ready to be incorrect.

When designing a soffit baffle front wall, from everything I've read thus far there have been two trends in eliminating sound transfer of monitors to the frame:

the first is to mount an existing monitor in as tight and dense as possible in another enclosure or three to create enough mass to block the transfer

the second using a "squeeze box" with a perimeter of calculatedly compressed sorbothane pods to accomplish the isolation

Monitors are designed, tuned, and built to usually be air tight enclosures for the drivers, sometimes with internal dividers to keep tweeters mids and woofers from fighting with each other and crossover circuits to keep them from climbing on top of each others territory. By soffit mounting the monitors, it changes that dynamic completely by presenting the sound with a more focused direction forward and killing anything behind. It also changes the audio character of the monitors in a variety of ways significant enough to introduce tuning in the room later. This isn't bad I don't think, just fun to think about and plan for when the expected response curve based on being in a normal room on stands gets changed for the greater good.

ALL THAT (sorry) to get to my question. Has any thought been given to the idea of doing away with the driver enclosure completely, having the drivers mounted on a face for the front that is similarly isolated from the rest of the construction, and then using the baffle box as the chamber that takes care of the rear sound? I've built a few monitors with friends over the years using selected drivers, calculating box volumes, and wiring crossover circuits for their home studios but nobody i know personally has ever soffit mounted them.

Is it insanity to even consider it? Are the drivers without a corresponding enclosure to isolate too much for a baffle box to absorb?

Asking all this because while I'm still in the "remove mushy drywall and dispose of saturated insulation and pray to the Almighty there's no mold in the studs/girts" stage of the room repair, I'm mentally starting to scheme ideas for it's redesign and use. I know it's possible to soffit mount Mackie 824 mk1 monitors (I know, I know. they've served me well for over 20 years. if it ain't broke...) but I started thinking about some fun possibilities outside of the realm of what I've been able to find.



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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#2

Postby norg » Fri, 2025-Feb-21, 14:32

Fun aside about sorbothane. I've worked with that stuff for a whole bunch of different projects. Using it to isolate medical equipment motors from resonant bed frames in my day job, creating some mic stand attachments for mics that need just a bit more isolation from rumbles, and even trying (and failing) to concoct a silent drum practice pad for one of my kids. That stuff is a miracle of science and I laughed out loud when I saw it being used in a design Stuart posted in one of the threads.



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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#3

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2025-Feb-21, 16:19

You are very right that soffit-mounting (or "flush mounting", if you prefer) changes the sound of the speaker, but it does so in a mostly beneficial way.

First, it extends the dimensions of the front baffle considerably in all directions, thus driving down the "baffle step response" frequency to a region where it isn't so problematic: that's the frequency where, due to the dimensions of the front baffle of the speaker, the sound field changes from being mostly projected forward (from the speaker's point of view) into the room, to the situation where longer waves "wrap around" behind the speaker, and go in the opposite direction. That, of course, reduces the power in the low frequencies: Hence, the control on the back of many speakers for compensating for this issue, by providing a boost or cut of (usually) up to 6 dB in those low frequencies. That takes care of the power imbalance, but it still doesn't deal with the issue of waves going the wrong way. The baffle of the soffit does deal with that, ... big time. So that's a good thing. Basically, you get better low-end response from your speaker, and all of the sound goes the right way; into the room, not wrapping around behind.

Next is the "edge diffraction" issue. The waves that do wrap around behind an free-standing speaker do not do so cleanly. There's a range of frequencies (about an octave or two wide) where the waves interact with the edges of the speaker, causing all kinds of strange interference patterns. Not a major issue, but still there. Hence, the shape of some speakers with rounded edges, or faceted edges, which reduce this problem. A soffit eliminates it completely.

There's also the issue of the sound being emitted "backwards" (behind the speaker, from it's own point of view, or towards the front wall of the room from the listening position perspective). That sound is emitted by the vibration of the speaker body itself, and perhaps also by bass reflex ports on the rear. Some of that sound can bounce off the front wall of the room, then head in the same direction as the main sound output, but out of phase at some frequencies (due to the distance between the wall and the speaker), thus causing interference patterns ("comb filtering") as it interacts with the main sound field. There's not much that the speaker designer can do about that. But the room designer can take it into account with careful placement of the speakers, if they are free standing. Or much better: he can mount the speaker in a soffit, which completely eliminates that.

There's a few other issues, but those are the three biggies.

So from that point of view, the soffit is a wonderful thing! It either totally eliminates or greatly reduces these three problems, and gives you a low end boost at the same time.

But as you point out, there's also some bad news. If the speaker has ports or active elements on the sides, top, or bottom, then it probably isn't a candidate for soffit mounting, as dealing with those ports is a nightmare. Ports on the back are not so much of an issue: both passive bass-reflex ports and active elements facing backwards can be dealt with. Since the sound coming out of those is confined inside the soffit, the usual way of dealing with that is a truck-load of absorption inside the soffit itself, as well as some form of light absorption inside the port. Done deal.

But do take into account that those ports or active elements were part of the design of the speaker! They were there to improve the sound of the speaker in some way. But if they are inside the soffit, they can't do that any more. On the other hand, what they were doing is usually trying to deal with the issues that the soffit itself is doing, and much better, so the change in sounds isn't really a problem. The difference can be compensated by digital tuning applied to the speaker, which is needed anyway for acoustic reasons in the room. The remaining issue here is loading: any bass reflex ports on the rear of the speaker provided some type of acoustic loading on the bass driver. Interfering with that can create issues, due to the change in loading. You CANNOT completely block off those rear-facing ports! That would not be good. What I normally do is to build the "enclosure" box that holds the speaker inside the soffit, with large holes in the rear panel, exactly where those bass ports are, so that they don't "see" a major change in loading. I also usually put a bit of very light absorption in the port itself, or just behind the port, to damp the action somewhat.

That usually takes care of the speaker acoustics. But there's still the issue of heat. Speakers get hot if you drive them hard, and they get even hotter when they cannot dissipate that heat, due to being enclosed in a massive wooden box, inside a heavily insulated larger wooden box. The solution here is simple: passive ventilation ducts. Have a large duct that is most of the width of the speaker, and at least an inch or two deep, coming up through the soffit under the rear of the speaker, and extending all the way up past the entire rear face of the speaker, up into the top of the soffit, and out into the free air of the studio. You don't normally need fans in there: convection will move enough air to keep the speakers cool.

This is one of the major reasons I prefer the Sorbothane mount system: you don't need a lot of surface area of Sorbothane to fully decouple it from the enclosure box, so you can leave a very large air gap all around the speaker, maybe half an inch wide all around it, with just a few Sorbothane pads in a few key places. That allows for even better air circulation all around the speaker. However, it does also create a minor issue of possible resonances inside, between the speaker itself and its enclosure box. Probably not a big deal, but a little light-weight insulation partially filling that air gap is sufficient to damp any resonance without blocking air flow. I often suggest the type of filter material is used on kitchen stove hoods, or furnace filters very light and fluff. Enough to do the job of damping some resonance, but sill allow air flow.

So those are the main considerations in soffit design. Hold the speaker firmly, put a very massive, very large baffle on the front of it, and have it all attached to a very massive,, strong frame of some kind, to keep it all rock steady. With the Sorbothane mount system, the speaker is free to move and vibrate on its pads (just as it would be if it were free-standing in the room), and the pads are tuned to isolate that vibration from the soffit itself. The air "chimney" provides cooling, and the insulation filling most of the internal soffit cavity provides the needed acosutic damping. The holes on the rear panel of the enclosure box allow the reflex ports to still do their thing, to a certain extent, and the digital tuning is the icing on the cake.

There are other ways of doing it, sure, but that's the method I prefer.

- Stuart -



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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#4

Postby norg » Fri, 2025-Feb-21, 17:49

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post
But do take into account that those ports or active elements were part of the design of the speaker! They were there to improve the sound of the speaker in some way. But if they are inside the soffit, they can't do that any more. On the other hand, what they were doing is usually trying to deal with the issues that the soffit itself is doing, and much better, so they change in sounds isn't really a problem. The difference can be compensated by digital tuning applied to the speaker, which is needed anyway for acoustic reasons in the room. The remaining issue here is loading: any bass reflex ports on the rear of the speaker provided some type of acoustic loading on the bass driver. Interfering with that can create issues, due to the change in loading. You CANNOT completely block off those rear-facing ports! That would not be good. What I normally do is to build the "enclosure" box that holds the speaker inside the soffit, with large holes in the rear panel, exactly where those bass ports are, so that they don't "see" a major change in loading. I also usually put a bit of very light absorption in the port itself, or just behind the port, to damp the action somewhat.


Ok firstly, thank you for taking the time to explain that! It all actually makes a lot of sense in the face of what I've read and seen so far so thank you for helping to reaffirm that information.

With all that, here's what I'm wondering. If you have a pair of passive monitors in a sealed enclosure box (or back ported like you mentioned), and when properly flush mounting it as described: if it removes aspects of the sound from the sides and back by being in the soffit construction, could you remove the sides top and bottom of the speaker box, mount the face with the speakers attached in the baffle box and isolate the perimeter Sorbothanally so that it won't transfer anything to the frame of the structure, pack in a truck load of insulation while keeping passive ventilation running over the drivers like before, and run that way? Most of the monitors were designed in boxes tuned for sitting on stands in a room or on a desk like you said. If mounting them in the soffit construction eliminates any of the tuning the speaker box creates, is there still a need for the speaker box?

I really hope I'm asking that question right. I wonder if I can find a way to illustrate it in SketchUp...



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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#5

Postby Soundman2020 » Sat, 2025-Feb-22, 04:18

could you remove the sides top and bottom of the speaker box, mount the face with the speakers attached in the baffle box and ...
I would not recommend doing that. The speaker box is an integral part of the overall speaker design and performance: if you take parts away from it,then you are going to drastically change the way it sounds. The speaker box places a very specific load on the drivers for each frequency range, and messing with that will definitely alter the sound. Rather, leave the box as is, and just mount it inside the soffit.

Speaker design is all about making a whole series of compromises in various ways to try to impedance-match the driver to the atmosphere, such that it transfers as much power as possible, equally across as wide a range of frequencies as possible, with frequency response that is as flat as possible, and very well damped time domain response, so there are as few internal resonances as possible. The original designer did all of that, and optimized everything he could so the drivers do the best job of transferring electrical energy into acoustic energy. Any changes you make to his box, will degrade the performance greatly.

If you REALLY want to make a great soffit, and totally understand what you are doing, you could design your entire soffit to be one huge speaker: you would need to select the drivers carefully and design your complete soffit as if it were a giant speaker box, but that's major deal. Not for the average studio builder. If you don't understand the Thiele/Small parameters, what they mean, and how to use them in designing a speaker, then I'd forget that idea. Speaker design is a huge field, and far more complex than studio design. I found this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters if you understand all of those equations, and what to do with them to design your speaker/soffit combination, then by all means do so! But it gets VERY complicated.... Personally, I don't know enough about it to even try. I prefer to just buy good quality speakers, and design soffits around them. Much simpler!

- Stuart -



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Soffit mounted monitors without the enclosure?

#6

Postby norg » Sat, 2025-Feb-22, 11:59

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post Speaker design is all about making a whole series of compromises in various ways to try to impedance-match the driver to the atmosphere, such that it transfers as much power as possible, equally across as wide a range of frequencies as possible, with frequency response that is as flat as possible, and very well damped time domain response, so there are as few internal resonances as possible. The original designer did all of that, and optimized everything he could so the drivers do the best job of transferring electrical energy into acoustic energy. Any changes you make to his box, will degrade the performance greatly.

If you REALLY want to make a great soffit, and totally understand what you are doing, you could design your entire soffit to be one huge speaker: you would need to select the drivers carefully and design your complete soffit as if it were a giant speaker box, but that's major deal. Not for the average studio builder. If you don't understand the Thiele/Small parameters, what they mean, and how to use them in designing a speaker, then I'd forget that idea. Speaker design is a huge field, and far more complex than studio design. I found this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters if you understand all of those equations, and what to do with them to design your speaker/soffit combination, then by all means do so! But it gets VERY complicated.... Personally, I don't know enough about it to even try. I prefer to just buy good quality speakers, and design soffits around them. Much simpler!


That's almost exactly what I was thinking; design the soffit as one giant speaker cabinet with very carefully selected drivers taking all the things you mentioned into consideration. How wide each driver spreads and at what frequency ranges, phase alignment, crossover circuitry, and all of the math you saw in the link and more. And you're absolutely correct. It IS very complex. And kinda nutty.

Which is kinda why I wanna try it :yahoo: and test it. And document it. And tweak it. I've found that speaker designers - there's a whole community of them just like here - like to test and measure things very similarly to the way rooms are measured and tested and there's even crossover between some of the tools and software used.

Thank you for the input!! It's probably insane and I might end up redoing the whole thing with my old Mackie monitors if it doesn't pan out (no pun intended) but as long as I know I'm going to be building a front wall soffit soonish, I'm going to give this a shot and share results here. Both as maybe useful information for future designers/builders but also with heavy disclaimers about the math involved.

P.S. it's great to "meet" you! I've followed your work for years now and your meticulous attention to details and debunking of "snake oil" theories is very inspiring.




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