New studio built – Need placement advice

[davedrums]

Hi everyone.

I previously posted a thread about a garage conversion into a studio, and it's now complete! I would like to get some advice on the treating and positioning side of things. The floor area is 40m2 concrete, with 2.75m high walls.

I have just finished converting my 3-car garage into a home studio and would like to get some advice on the treating and positioning side of things. The floor area is 40m2 concrete, with 2.75m high walls.

The space is divided into two areas.

The smaller area (with red e-kit) is for teaching drums since I work from home, and the bigger area is set out as a hybrid room for both recording drums and mixing (as well as band practice, hence the PA and sub).

Between the rooms I have hung thick acoustic blankets (rated for >400Hz) to be able to dry out the room a little if needed. I've got 4cm thick rubber mats underneath the recording kit, mainly because I had them lying around, but also because I assume it helps with floor reflections for close mics on the kit.

The room is still being set up, but I've attached some pics of its current state, and some 3D modelling pics to show my proposed acoustic panel placement. The panels are on their way from interstate and will arrive over the next couple weeks.

I know it's a bit more of a challenge trying to acoustically treat the bigger area for both recording/mixing since they have different treating needs (live vs dry), but it suits my workflow much better this way.

Basically this post is to try and get a few questions answered so that I can do everything to the best of my situation. Any advice and insight is greatly appreciated!

MONITORS & MIXING

1. I am using Genelec 8030C monitors. I've chosen the black feature wall to place the monitors against, since the walls to my sides have the longest path leading in to the smaller room. The monitors are positioned symmetrically to the centre of the big room, rather than putting them off-centre in the big room to make them symmetrical to the smaller room at the opposite end (if that makes sense). Would this be the best setup for this odd shaped space?

2. I see mixed comments online about monitor distance from the wall. I've read about the 1/3 rule, but if considering the entire 9.5m length from the recording area to the student area, I don't have the space to move my desk 3 metres away from the wall once more stuff is moved into the room. The 8030C manual mentions to place them anywhere from 5cm to 60cm away from the wall. I've gone with 50cm. Is this appropriate?

3. I have the recording kit right behind me at the mixing desk. I decided to go with placing the kit in the centre of the room based on the whole setup so far. The snare and floor tom(s) seem to sound good there. Is this a common occurrence to have it set up this way in a hybrid room? Does having the drums behind the mixing desk massively affect the mixing side of things by being a large diffusive/reflective object?

4. I have an ECM8000 to test room modes. Should I be using Genelec's GLM software or REW for this?

TREATING

5. The acoustic panels are 1200mm high, 600mm wide and 200mm thick; and made of polyester insulation with fabric wrap from an Australian company.
I plan to place panels behind the desk, to my sides for first reflections, a ceiling cloud above the mixing desk and drum kit, and other panels scattered out somewhat evenly across the walls. I couldn't afford proper bass traps, so I'm going to use 2x stacked panels in the 4 corners of the big area. I have one pair of panels on the furthest small area wall to help with longer standing waves. The ceiling cloud panels are 100mm thick instead of 200mm, only because there is already a lot of weight hanging from the roof battens with double plasterboard. Overall, the panels take up about 17% of the total wall and ceiling surface area (plus another 16% when the curtains are closed, if that counts). My question is, does this proposed placement seem like a good guide before the panels arrive?

6. I know that the sliding door is a massive sound suck, and one of the reasons that I decided to go with a hybrid setup in the bigger area. The glass is 10.5mm thick and fitted with acoustic seals to try and help, and there are 2 decoupled layers of acoustic blankets infront of the door to also help. Does having this sliding door change anything about my setup, or something I'm not aware of?

DRUMS & RECORDING

7. The clear kit in the bigger area is for drum lessons. When I need to record or mix, should I be moving the clear kit into the smaller area (and closing off the curtains) to reduce any excess diffusion?


Thank you in advance!

- Dave

[gullfo]

i think the layout drawing with the panels is a good start. you have space to add more if needed. on the measurement - i'd say REW for overall, and the Genelec for tweaking the monitoring speakers + listening space.

[endorka]

I've got 4cm thick rubber mats underneath the recording kit, mainly because I had them lying around, but also because I assume it helps with floor reflections for close mics on the kit.

I've no idea how much these will reduce reflections from the floor, and at what frequencies. Is there a way to find this out?

Personally, I prefer to have the drums on a somewhat reflective surface e.g. wood, laminate or vinyl floor because I like the livelier sound it gives, and I like that it reflects some of the under snare sound back into overhead mics. With this I don't have to use an under snare mic. I have some absorption on the ceiling though, particularly as it is low, and some absorption behind and to the sides of the kit, particularly if the walls are close.

Much of this depends on what kind of drum sound you are going for though of course.

2. I see mixed comments online about monitor distance from the wall. I've read about the 1/3 rule, but if considering the entire 9.5m length from the recording area to the student area, I don't have the space to move my desk 3 metres away from the wall once more stuff is moved into the room. The 8030C manual mentions to place them anywhere from 5cm to 60cm away from the wall. I've gone with 50cm. Is this appropriate?

I'd go with 5cm, to push the speaker boundary reflection from the wall into as high a frequency range as possible. I have an older version of those speakers, and this is what I found best.

There's an SBIR calculator here you might find useful http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm

I see you have the speakers mounted on a desk. You'll get reflections from the desk interfering with the sound from the desk, causing midrange distortion, which isn't ideal. If you could place the speakers such that there is nothing between them and your ears it would be better, although I realise there might be ergonomic considerations with your workflow that would prevent this. In which case you'll have to decide on a sound fidelity / usability tradeoff.

3. I have the recording kit right behind me at the mixing desk. I decided to go with placing the kit in the centre of the room based on the whole setup so far. The snare and floor tom(s) seem to sound good there. Is this a common occurrence to have it set up this way in a hybrid room? Does having the drums behind the mixing desk massively affect the mixing side of things by being a large diffusive/reflective object?

I record drummers in my control room in a similar way, with the drums in a similar position, perhaps a little further back. I haven't audibly been aware of interference from diffusion or reflection from them, but a drum kit will audibly resonate when you playback audio, and this will for certain interfere with your ability to make mix judgements. For example, on a recent session the drummer noticed that his drums were "playing" without him hitting them when the same drums sounded on the playback. Another common example you'll have encountered will be the snare rattling when someone plays another instrument on a gig. A nightmare during the ballads without drums!

You might be able to reduce this effect by turning the snare off and throwing heavy blankets over the kit. It's something I'd keep an eye on though, just in case.

4. I have an ECM8000 to test room modes. Should I be using Genelec's GLM software or REW for this?

My older version of those speakers don't have this capability so I've no idea. The ECM8000 is ok, but is not calibrated so to some extent will leave you guessing about your room measurements. If you can afford it I'd upgrade to a calibrated mic like the UMIK-1.

For room treatment, like Glenn says, you have a reasonable starting point. A couple of observations though;

- Corners, especially tri corners, are best for bass absorber placement. You have "2x stacked panels in the 4 corners of the big area". One of those sits on the floor, and this is good, as it is occupying the floor/wall/wall tri corner. The one stacked above it is only occupying the wall/wall corner. Instead of stacking, if you moved it so it touched the ceiling it would be in the ceiling/wall/wall tri corner and likely improve performance.

- As you go back into the "live" area of the big room, the wall panels are placed opposite each other. With this amount of coverage I prefer to have them staggered to breakup flutter echo, so (in general) a bare bit of wall on one side will face an absorber on the other.

Cheers!
Jennifer

[davedrums]

i think the layout drawing with the panels is a good start. you have space to add more if needed. on the measurement - i'd say REW for overall, and the Genelec for tweaking the monitoring speakers + listening space.

Thanks for your reply. I'll give REW a go first!

[davedrums]

Source of the post

Thanks for your reply Jennifer!

I've no idea how much these will reduce reflections from the floor, and at what frequencies. Is there a way to find this out?

Personally, I prefer to have the drums on a somewhat reflective surface e.g. wood, laminate or vinyl floor because I like the livelier sound it gives, and I like that it reflects some of the under snare sound back into overhead mics. With this I don't have to use an under snare mic. I have some absorption on the ceiling though, particularly as it is low, and some absorption behind and to the sides of the kit, particularly if the walls are close.

Much of this depends on what kind of drum sound you are going for though of course.

I found out from the manufacturer that these mats are rated at 130kg/m3 density. My old 3x3 metre bedroom had these covering the entire floor, and it definitely made a difference with drying out the room. The wall/ceiling panels are still on their way, but I'm guessing that with only around 15-20% of the new room covered in panels, that it might already be a little too lively? I'll have to see...

I'd go with 5cm, to push the speaker boundary reflection from the wall into as high a frequency range as possible. I have an older version of those speakers, and this is what I found best.

There's an SBIR calculator here you might find useful http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm

I see you have the speakers mounted on a desk. You'll get reflections from the desk interfering with the sound from the desk, causing midrange distortion, which isn't ideal. If you could place the speakers such that there is nothing between them and your ears it would be better, although I realise there might be ergonomic considerations with your workflow that would prevent this. In which case you'll have to decide on a sound fidelity / usability tradeoff.

Awesome to know that you had the same monitors. I'll give it a shot being closer to the wall – does this matter that it has a back port, rather than front port?
I do have a pair of monitor stands, but because of the desk being so wide, they would have to sit slighly behind the horizontal line of the screen (ie, behind the screen slightly). I guess that leads to the question (which I did look up but couldn't really find specific info on), would it be better to space their width a little bit more, but have them slightly behind the screen so that I can put them on stands?

I record drummers in my control room in a similar way, with the drums in a similar position, perhaps a little further back. I haven't audibly been aware of interference from diffusion or reflection from them, but a drum kit will audibly resonate when you playback audio, and this will for certain interfere with your ability to make mix judgements. For example, on a recent session the drummer noticed that his drums were "playing" without him hitting them when the same drums sounded on the playback. Another common example you'll have encountered will be the snare rattling when someone plays another instrument on a gig. A nightmare during the ballads without drums!

You might be able to reduce this effect by turning the snare off and throwing heavy blankets over the kit. It's something I'd keep an eye on though, just in case.

That's good to know! My floor toms have a bunch of cotton balls inside of them that rest on the bottom heads (to help tame down resonance after the initial attack), so the bottom head probably won't be an issue as long as the monitor loudness isn't making the cotton balls jump around. I also have the pillow in my kick so that it touches both heads, so same sort of thing. I could easily put a towel on the top heads of the while mixing. Regarding the snare, from experience I don't think that the snare heads will resonate much since I have them tuned up so high - I could be wrong. But I'll definitely look out for all of that overall!

My older version of those speakers don't have this capability so I've no idea. The ECM8000 is ok, but is not calibrated so to some extent will leave you guessing about your room measurements. If you can afford it I'd upgrade to a calibrated mic like the UMIK-1.

Will using an ECM8000 calibration file in REW, which I've found a couple online, help with that?

For room treatment, like Glenn says, you have a reasonable starting point. A couple of observations though;

- Corners, especially tri corners, are best for bass absorber placement. You have "2x stacked panels in the 4 corners of the big area". One of those sits on the floor, and this is good, as it is occupying the floor/wall/wall tri corner. The one stacked above it is only occupying the wall/wall corner. Instead of stacking, if you moved it so it touched the ceiling it would be in the ceiling/wall/wall tri corner and likely improve performance.

- As you go back into the "live" area of the big room, the wall panels are placed opposite each other. With this amount of coverage I prefer to have them staggered to breakup flutter echo, so (in general) a bare bit of wall on one side will face an absorber on the other.

Note taken. The walls are 2.75m high and two stacked panels will make 2.4m, so I'll give it a shot having a 35cm gap in between the two panels. The wall panels to the side to my desk will be lined up, but I'll suss out how much I can stagger them when they arrive.

[endorka]

Source of the post Awesome to know that you had the same monitors. I'll give it a shot being closer to the wall – does this matter that it has a back port, rather than front port?

No, if Genelec says 5cm is ok, you can be sure it is. This will give the speakers a low frequency boost though, so you'll likely need to adjust the dip switches at the back to compensate for it. Assuming these newer ones have dip switches, it may all be done with DSP now for all I know! The manual will keep you right anyway.

I do have a pair of monitor stands, but because of the desk being so wide, they would have to sit slighly behind the horizontal line of the screen (ie, behind the screen slightly). I guess that leads to the question (which I did look up but couldn't really find specific info on), would it be better to space their width a little bit more, but have them slightly behind the screen so that I can put them on stands?

Bear in mind you should (roughly) keep an equilateral triangle for distance between the acoustic axis of the speakers and your listening position. Your head is actually somewhat within this as the "head corner" converges behind your head & ears. So if you widen speaker placement, you'll probably also have to move the mix position back more into the room.

That's good to know! My floor toms have a bunch of cotton balls inside of them that rest on the bottom heads (to help tame down resonance after the initial attack), so the bottom head probably won't be an issue as long as the monitor loudness isn't making the cotton balls jump around. I also have the pillow in my kick so that it touches both heads, so same sort of thing. I could easily put a towel on the top heads of the while mixing. Regarding the snare, from experience I don't think that the snare heads will resonate much since I have them tuned up so high - I could be wrong. But I'll definitely look out for all of that overall!

We were only listening back at about 83 dB SPL and it was enough to make the kit ring. I was thinking more about the snare wires rattling than the snare, but it may still resonate in sympathy even if tightly tuned. This sort of stuff is worth the watching because if you get your room up to a good standard, any creaks, groans, buzzes, squeaks and rattles in the room will interfere with your mixing, even if they are quiet. They can be surprisingly difficult to locate, and really mess with your mind if you think it's something in the mix making the noise.

A double bass lying in my control room has had a similar effect by the way - it was like adding reverb to a mix!

My older version of those speakers don't have this capability so I've no idea. The ECM8000 is ok, but is not calibrated so to some extent will leave you guessing about your room measurements. If you can afford it I'd upgrade to a calibrated mic like the UMIK-1.

Will using an ECM8000 calibration file in REW, which I've found a couple online, help with that?

No, there is such a large variation in the frequency response of these microphones that a calibration file for one is not applicable to another. The UMIK-1 is about £100, for the accuracy it gives and the time it will save you, it's worth every penny. You can also use it with REW as a calibrated decibel meter.

Cheers,
Jennifer