New Home Studio build in Japan

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Jag94
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New Home Studio build in Japan

#46

Postby Jag94 » Sun, 2020-Nov-01, 21:31

kwow wrote:Only part of what your wrote that I wasn't clear on was what you meant by "both layers held in place with cleats".


Page 271-274 in Rods book explain this quite clearly. It's actually in a few other places, but that's the one I remember. Also, if you search this forum and many other forums and build threads, you will see plenty of pictures of people using this method (including my build thread).

SoWhat wrote:Rod's book has a good section describing electrical installation (lots of emphasis on proper grounding).


Rod's book shows a very basic design with theory behind it. The only problem is, each city/state/country has it's own electrical codes, and everyone's buildings are different (attached garage, detatched garage, attic, leased space in multi-story building, etc) that it can get very complicated very quickly. I paid Rod for consulting on my HVAC plan, and when I asked him some questions on electrical, he told me he wouldn't help me, and I should consult with my local electricians.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, find a licensed electrician in your area who can give you the information you need for your situation.



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Soundman2020
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New Home Studio build in Japan

#47

Postby Soundman2020 » Sun, 2020-Nov-01, 22:27

How much isolation do I really need? As mentioned before, enough so I can play the drums without upsetting the neighbors. As far as decibels, I really don't know since the building is not built yet so there's no way for me to actually measure how loud I am.
I keep meaning to write a brief article on this, since the question comes up so often!

To figure out how much isolation you need, you don't really need to be in the location where your studio will be built. What you do need, is your typical setup, and a sound level meter. By "typical setup", I mean the things you normally have in a typical session, similar to what you will be doing in your studio when it is finished. So, for example, if your studio is just for mixing (no tracking), then your typical setup would be the speakers you plan to use, your DAW, and some typical material, playing at typical levels. If you are building a rehearsal space or tracking room, then your "typical setup" would be the group of musicians and instruments that you plan to have rehearing/tracking in your studio.

So, get your "typical setup" together, and making lots of noise, similar to what you would have in a typical session in the future studio. You can do this in ANY location! It does not have to be done in the place where your studio will be. It could be in the studio you are using right now, or a rented studio, or your living room, garage, church, club... wherever. Any place of a similar size to what you are planning for your studio will do.

OK, so you have your typical setup making a lot of typical noise in some room that vaguely resembles what your future studio will be like. Now get out your sound level meter, and measure! That's it! That's all you need to do to determine "How Loud You Will Be". Set your SPL meter to "C" weighting and "Slow" response, and measure at several places around the room, and take notes. Try to keep the SPL meter about three feet (1 m) away from the things you are measuring. If you are just measuring your speakers for a control room (mixing room), then measure on-axis to the speaker, about 3 feet from the face of the speaker. That's your main measurement, but also measure in a few other locations around the room. If you are measuring a drum kit, then have the meter roughly where the head of the drummer is: a few inches above his head is a good spot, but make sure his head is not blocking the sound from any of the pieces in the kit. Once again, that's your main measurement, but measure other locations too.

Measure lots, make lots of notes. And you are done!

At this point, you have a piece of paper with lots of numbers on it, representing the SPL levels you measured at various points around the room. You should see a clear trend in there: Most of the numbers will be quite similar, with a few outliers. You could average them if you want, mathematically, but you'll probably see the trend right away, and be able to determine an overall number. Keep that number and also the highest "main measurement" number. These are your key numbers.

So, now you know "How Loud You Will Be Inside Your Studio". Next step is to find out "How Quiet You Need To Be Outside Your Studio". There's two key issues here: 1) How quiet you need to be in order to not disturb the neighbors, and 2) How quiet you have to be LEGALLY.

#2 is easy to determine: check your local municipality (or other local authority) web site and download a copy of their noise ordinance. That will tell you what the maxim level is that you are allowed to produce, in decibels, along with the times of day: most noise regulations allow higher levels during the day, and restrict it to lower levels at night.

#1 is a bit harder! Different people have different thresholds for annoyance. The noise level that annoys one person a bit, might not even be noticed by another person, while a third person is extremely annoyed. This is more subjective. What you can do, is use some "rules of thumb", and maybe ask some friends and family for their help. Just play music in one room while they are in the next room with the door closed, and slowly turn the volume down until they say they are happy, and would not be annoyed by that level. Then measure the level IN THEIR LOCATION, and note it down. Do that with several people, and average the numbers. You will probably find that it is close to the "rule of thumb": Most people would say that a level of 30 dBC is "silent", and that a level of maybe 35 dB to 40 dB is "acceptable".

So, now you now two things: How loud you are, and how quite you have to be. Subtract. The answer is "How Much Isolation Your Studio Needs".

It really is that simple.

For example, let's say that you are just going to mix in your studio, no tracking, and you want to do this for many, many years without destroying your hearing, so you have your speakers set at a sane level, and the maximum you measured is 85 dBC. You also checked with your friends, and they all agree that 40 dB is good, and your local noise regulations also say say 40 dB: Subtract: 85 - 40 = 45. So you need 45 dB isolation for your studio. Done!

Or if you plan to track Pink Floyd live in your studio, and they are roaring out a massive 120 dB, while your noise regulations say that 35 dB is the limit for "quiet", then you would need 120 - 35 = 85 dB of isolation, in which case you should take out a very, very large loan from your bank, because it is going to cost a fortune to get that level of isolation! :ahh:

So, this is the basic method for figuring out how much isolation you need. Summary: Measure the levels in a typical situation that you expect to have in your studio, find out how quiet you need to be both legally and also from the point of view of being a good neighbor: the difference between those two numbers is how much isolation you need.

Now, this does NOT necessarily mean that you need a wall that is able to provide that much! There are a couple of other factors involved, that you need to take into account. One is distance, the other is ambient level. These are both your friends here. If your studio is a hundred feet away from your property line, then that's a hundred feet of level drop, which is great! The normal rule of thumb here is that the sound level decreases at a rate of about 4 to 5 dB each time you double the distance. In theory, it is 6 dB for each distance doubling, but that's for "full space", with nothing around you in all directions, including above and below.... so you'd have to be hovering in mid air for that to be true. There's also things like walls, cars, fences, houses, trees, etc that can tend to reflect sound in certain directions more than others, so it is safer to use a rate of 4 or 5 dB per distance doubling. 4 to be safe, for loud levels.

So, if your future Pink Floyd studio only manages to produce 60 dB of isolation after it is built (because your bank manager flat refused to give you a million dollar loan to get 85 dB...), and you measure a level of 60 dB about three feet away from the wall when the band is going nuts inside at 120 dB, then that 60 dB level will probably drop to about about 56 dB at 6 feet from the wall, 52 dB at 12 feet, 48 dB at 24 feet, 44 dB at 48 feet, and 40 dB at 96 feet, which is the end of your property in this hypothetical situation. So the situation is a bit better than it seems. You are only 5 dB over the hypothetical 35 dB limit in this case.

The second thing that might help, is ambient noise. If you live in an area that has high levels of background noise, such as close to a freeway, airport, shipping port, factory, train station, etc., then chances are that the background noise level will be higher than what the legal regulations say! For example, if the legal limit is 35 dB but the background level is 55 dB, then you are fine! Nobody would be able to hear your Pink Floyd studio, because the ambient noise is masking it, and in addition it is physically impossible to measure the level of a 40 dB sound in the presence of a 55 dB sound!

So that would be the "best case" scenario.

However, if your property line is just a 10 feet away from your studio, and you live in a very quiet area where the ambient level is 35 dB, then you are fresh out of luck! Your Pink Floyd studio is going to be very, very audible to people standing at your property line.

So, that's the situation here: first you need to measure how loud you are, and how quiet you have to be, subtract to get the magic number: How Much Isolation You Need In Decibels. That tells you how to build your walls, doors, windows, ceiling, electrical system, HVAC system, etc. in order to get a legal level three feet from the studio wall. Then you can take into account the distance factor, and the ambient noise factor, to see if you can relax the isolation number a bit.

Once you arrive at the FINAL number for how much isolation you need for your studio, then you can start looking into different building methods, materials, and techniques that can provide that level of isolation, and choose the one that best fits your budget.


- Stuart -



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#48

Postby Soundman2020 » Sun, 2020-Nov-01, 23:16

It could also mean that I'm spending on things that I don't need, or I'm just getting ripped off somewhere
Quite possible! (on both counts... :) )

Since I need to finish making decisions before they actually start building (which will be in 1-2 months),
I do hope I manage to put this correctly without offending you, but I can't see you being ready to build a month from now, based on where you are right now. Nor in 2 months, either. I reckon it is going to take considerably longer than that. For example, you don't yet know how much isolation you need, so you don't know if the design you have done so far is good for what you need, or not. Also, it seems that the isolation design so far is only considering walls and ceilings, but there's a lot of other things to consider as well, such as the HVAC system (which is a big deal), doors, windows, and the electrical system. In this context, I'm talking about the acoustic isolation through the electrical system, not so much the actual wiring, circuits, grounding, outlets, etc. Sound will travel through the electrical system, so that also needs to be isolated acoustically. For low to moderate isolation this isn't too much of a problem usually, but for high isolation it can be very important.

So. my suggestion would be to hold off on the construction a bit, until you have the complete acoustic design finished, with all the math done, and you are certain that it really will provide the level of isolation that you need.

As of now, I just know that I'm going to pull just 1 line into the studio and the studio will have its own breaker box.
That's great, but you still need to allow for acoustic isolation on that feed.

And I'm thinking, the lights, HVAC, and the gear will each be on its own circuit? If anyone can lead me to some links for me to study (Hopefully, something as clear cut as possible!) I'd appreciate it!
I normally have lights on one circuit, HVAC on another, non-technical on a third, and technical on a fourth. By "technical", I mean all of your audio gear, DAW, speakers, etc. as applicable. "Non-technical" is things like outlets for the vacuum cleaner, coffee pot, bar fridge, charging your cell phone, plugging in a laptop, pizza oven, etc. Anything that is not part of your audio gar setup. For each of those circuits, you should calculate the total load (in watts or amps) needed, and specify a circuit breaker suitable for that load. Here "suitable" has several implications: it's not just about the normal power draw: Heavy electric motors, such as the HVAC system, have a brief "surge" as they kick in, then the level drops down to the normal load. So the circuit breaker must be of the right type for that specific surge. In most countries, this is specified by the "curve" that the breaker can handle, but the method for specifying that is different in different places. Where I live, the "curve" is specified by a letter, so a 10 amp C curve breaker has a different profile than a 10 amp B curve breaker. Both are 10 amps, and will allow 10 amps of current to flow normally, but the B curve breaker will trigger sooner than the C curve, and the D curve will take longer still before it triggers.

This is why you need an electrician. He will analyze each load, and decide what type of breaker it needs, as well as the capacity of the breaker. He will also tell you whether or not you need to have an RCCB (probably yes!), and which circuits it needs to protect (probably all of them, but at least the outlet circuits). He will also know what diameter of wiring is needed for each circuit and each outlet/switch/load, and how they must be installed, to comply with YOUR electrical code, where you live.

Some of what Rod writes about in his book is applicable in your case, but a lot of it is NOT applicable, because he writes mainly for the USA, but you are in Japan. In the USA, the electrical system is 110 volts (or 115, or 120), in Japan it is 100 volts, where I live it is 220 volts, and I have also lived in countries where it is 240 volts. There are very different requirements and regulations for these different systems, and it is actually more complicate than just that. For example, the USA also does use 220 volts in places, but then often splits that to a pair of 110 volt circuits that are 180° out of phase, but where I live we use 380 volt power which is split three ways, into three different 220 volt circuits that are 120° out of phase. But the USA also has 380 volt circuits, in addition to the others, and three-phase power can be wired as either star or delta, which means that there will be a central neutral conductor in the case of star wiring, which is usually bonded to earth (but might not be), but there is no neutral conductor in the case of delta wiring.... In the USA the frequency is 60 Hz, but here in Chile it is 50 Hz, and it varies in Japan: some places are 50 Hz, some are 60 Hz, but power factor calculations are different, because they involve capacitors and inductors, which have different effects at different frequencies, and some appliances will only work on one frequency, or the other, while others can be switched.... ... etc., etc. ... Different systems, different needs, different regulations, different methods.

In other words, don't try to figure this out yourself: it is complicated. Instead, get a locally certified electrician involved. It's not safe to try to do this part of the design yourself, unless your are a qualified electrician. There's a lot of things you CAN do yourself in designing your studio, but two areas where you should not try are electrical and structural. Those are two areas where you really do need to hire an expert.

- Stuart -



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#49

Postby kwow » Fri, 2020-Nov-06, 00:50

Hi Jag94
Thanks for your response. I read the part of Rod’s book the you mentioned (which was in the “Beefing Up Garage or Other Exterior Wall Assemblies”) and I also searched “cleats” here on the forum. I think, I understand what cleats are and what they’re for.
Thank you :)

Since mine is a new build, it seems that I don’t need cleats. Am I correct?


Hi Stuart

Thank you so much again for your input/suggestions.
So, get your "typical setup" together, and making lots of noise, similar to what you would have in a typical session in the future studio. You can do this in ANY location!

Unfortunately, I can’t even do that. I live in a condo right now where I can’t make that kind of noise at all.

You had said before (earlier in this thread):
Drums are loud, even when played "quietly": Assume that you will be around 95-100 dBC, regularly hitting 105-110 dBC, and occasionally around 115 dBC when you feel very enthusiastic!  Those are reasonable ball-park figures.

Ok, so let’s just say up to around 120dB for the drums. And for mixing, something like 85dB. I won’t be doing the “Pink Floyd” thing so not to worry about that :) I’m pretty much using this place by myself.
So, now you know "How Loud You Will Be Inside Your Studio". Next step is to find out "How Quiet You Need To Be Outside Your Studio". There's two key issues here: 1) How quiet you need to be in order to not disturb the neighbors, and 2) How quiet you have to be LEGALLY.

I’ll be in a business district even though in reality, there are more regular houses than businesses. There’s a picture of the surroundings in my first post.
Here’s the “LEGALLY” part.
I looked it up, plus I called the city and confirmed this:
6am to 8am: 60dB
8am to 6pm: 65dB
6pm to 10pm: 65dB
10pm to 6am: 55db
which is a lot higher than regular residential areas in Japan.

I do hope I manage to put this correctly without offending you, but I can't see you being ready to build a month from now, based on where you are right now. Nor in 2 months, either.

Ready or not, it’s going to happen. Why? Because I will have to pay possibly over $100,000 in taxes on the money I have if I don’t do it in time, and that would make it so that I can’t even afford to have the house and the studio built.
but there's a lot of other things to consider as well, such as the HVAC system (which is a big deal), doors, windows, and the electrical system. In this context, I'm talking about the acoustic isolation through the electrical system, not so much the actual wiring, circuits, grounding, outlets, etc.


There will be no windows so no problem there.

I’m having a ventilation system installed that’s made by a company that specialize in soundproofing products. They’ve already done all the calculations on how much air exchange I need, etc.. There will be four 6m runs: 2 for the intake, and 2 for exhaust with silencer, combination of flexible and non-flexible ducts and they guarantee -55dB to -60dB reduction. Also the actual fan noise right at the fan is about 20dB.

A/C - I’ll be using a Daikin mini-split system. I plan on sealing things well like shown on Starlight’s build thread.

I’ll be using two acoustic doors made by a company that specialize in isolation doors. I’ll post a couple of images. Dr-45 (with pink/magenta line on the graph) is the type I'm getting.
Door_TL.jpeg

Kosho_gradian45.jpeg

guardian_hardware.jpg

guardian_door.jpeg

I spent a couple of years totally busting my butt doing hardcore renovation for the house that I sold in the US. And because I don’t have the time, energy, or the space for it, there won’t be any DIY except for the acoustic treatment later.

So for electrical, I’m not doing any of the actual work. I’m having a new house and the studio built so obviously there’s going to be a professional electrician. I’m just trying to figure out what to ask him/them to do.
I normally have lights on one circuit, HVAC on another, non-technical on a third, and technical on a fourth. By "technical", I mean all of your audio gear, DAW, speakers, etc. as applicable. "Non-technical" is things like outlets for the vacuum cleaner, coffee pot, bar fridge, charging your cell phone, plugging in a laptop, pizza oven, etc. Anything that is not part of your audio gar setup.

Thank you for this information.
There will be no vacuum cleaner (I’ll have a cordless unit charging in a different room), coffee pot, bar fridge, pizza oven. Since you list DAW as the “technical”, the “laptop” you mention isn’t the the computer you’re using to run the DAW, is it? What about amps and a small PA system, etc.? Would you put these on the “technical” as well? Or separate?

When you say
acoustic isolation through the electrical system, not so much the actual wiring, circuits, grounding, outlets, etc.

You are talking about heavily caulking around the openings where the main electrical line comes in to the studio that leads to its own circuit box (the kind of stuff Starlight is doing in his studio)?
If not, I would love to know!


Thank you :)
Keith



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#50

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2020-Nov-06, 01:33

Since mine is a new build, it seems that I don’t need cleats. Am I correct?
Right! What Rod describes there is for existing structures, where you have no access to the other side of the wall (for example, a shared party-wall), or where you don't want to disturb it (for example, if it is an exterior wall with water barrier, sheathing and siding and is working just fine). That is not applicable to new builds, like yours, where you can put whatever you want, wherever you want.

Unfortunately, I can’t even do that. I live in a condo right now where I can’t make that kind of noise at all.
Maybe I didn't explain it too well: You can do it ANYWHERE! Rent a practice room, or ask a friend if you can use his garage, or any other place: there must be SOME place you can do this test.

Ok, so let’s just say up to around 120dB for the drums. And for mixing, something like 85dB. I won’t be doing the “Pink Floyd” thing so not to worry about that :) I’m pretty much using this place by myself.
Actually, 120 dBC isn't far from the Pink Floyd thing! :) 120 dBC IS very, very loud. So loud, in fact, that if that were the level in a workplace, you would be required by safety regulations to wear hearing protection all the time, for exposure of more than a few minutes per day. Otherwise, you would suffer irreversible hearing damage...

I looked it up, plus I called the city and confirmed this:
6am to 8am: 60dB
8am to 6pm: 65dB
6pm to 10pm: 65dB
10pm to 6am: 55db
which is a lot higher than regular residential areas in Japan.
Those are unusually high levels, which is good for you! In most countries, that would be for an industrial area.

So, based on the above, it seems you would need about 65 dB isolation. That would get your 120 dB internal level down to 55 dB outside, assuming you don't have much distance between you and your neighbors.

I’m having a ventilation system installed that’s made by a company that specialize in soundproofing products. They’ve already done all the calculations on how much air exchange I need, etc.. There will be four 6m runs: 2 for the intake, and 2 for exhaust with silencer, combination of flexible and non-flexible ducts and they guarantee -55dB to -60dB reduction.
:thu:
I’ll be using two acoustic doors made by a company that specialize in isolation doors.
:thu: Those look pretty good.

Since you list DAW as the “technical”, the “laptop” you mention isn’t the the computer you’re using to run the DAW, is it?
Right! I'm thinking more of the situation where you have a friend in the room, or maybe another musician, and he pulls out his laptop to check e-mail, find the music for a song, or whatever. You don't want that on your "technical" circuit, since laptop power supplies are notoriously noisy (electrical noise, not sound noise).

You are talking about heavily caulking around the openings where the main electrical line comes in to the studio that leads to its own circuit box (the kind of stuff Starlight is doing in his studio)?
This is what I'm talking about here:
Conduit-isolation-1-SML-ENH.png
Conduit-isolation-0-SML-ENH.png
Conduit-isolation-2-SML-ENH.png
Conduit-isolation-3-SML-ENH.png
The common way of getting high isolation for the power feed, and for any other feed into the room that you might need (eg, Internet, cable TV, intercom, alarms, landline, etc.) For high isolation, the conduit itself should be split, then the gap wrapped with soft rubber and sealed. Then stuff insulation down the ends of the conduits (both ends), before caulking abundantly.

- Stuart -



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#51

Postby kwow » Sat, 2020-Nov-07, 11:15

Hi Stuart

Thank you for your response!
Actually, 120 dBC isn't far from the Pink Floyd thing! 120 dBC IS very, very loud. So loud, in fact, that if that were the level in a workplace, you would be required by safety regulations to wear hearing protection all the time, for exposure of more than a few minutes per day. Otherwise, you would suffer irreversible hearing damage…

Then I must not be that loud. I wouldn’t say I have absolutely no hearing damage, but my hearing is pretty good, and I play for hours at a time (although I haven’t been able to for a few years since I moved) and I’ve been playing for over 40 years.
Maybe I didn't explain it too well: You can do it ANYWHERE! Rent a practice room, or ask a friend if you can use his garage, or any other place: there must be SOME place you can do this test.

You explained yourself very well, and I wish I could. But there's not a rehearsal space near by, I don't own a car, I don't even have a Japanese drivers license yet, I live in a congested yet very quiet neighborhood (different state/prefecture from where I'm going to be) where only really rich people have garages, and even if I knew someone with a garage, if I played in one, the cops would more than likely show up immediately. If I was still living in the US, I could have easily done it, but things are quite different where I'm living right now.
Those are unusually high levels, which is good for you! In most countries, that would be for an industrial area.

I know. I’m glad that I bought a land where did :)
So, based on the above, it seems you would need about 65 dB isolation. That would get your 120 dB internal level down to 55 dB outside, assuming you don't have much distance between you and your neighbors.

The studio doors will be placed away from the neighbors, and they will open into my own house. Also I plan to place the electrical, HVAC and the drums away from the neighbors side and towards the street.
Right! I'm thinking more of the situation where you have a friend in the room, or maybe another musician, and he pulls out his laptop to check e-mail, find the music for a song, or whatever. You don't want that on your "technical" circuit, since laptop power supplies are notoriously noisy (electrical noise, not sound noise).

What about recording equipment with wall wart type power supplies? Do they create a lot of noise as well?
The common way of getting high isolation for the power feed, and for any other feed into the room that you might need (eg, Internet, cable TV, intercom, alarms, landline, etc.) For high isolation, the conduit itself should be split, then the gap wrapped with soft rubber and sealed. Then stuff insulation down the ends of the conduits (both ends), before caulking abundantly.

Wow, this is super helpful! Thank you so much for the images, too :)
I assume, the soft rubber between the conduit is so that vibration won’t pass through one leaf to the other via the conduit?

OK, back to the isolation topic for a moment. I’ve tried a couple of MAM/MSM calculator in attempt to figure out what kind of TL I should be getting with my wall plan. But because of the limited choices that these calculators offer: with air gap size, studs size, gypsum thickness, gypsum density, etc. I’m not really sure what I could expect. Do you recommend a calculator or a way that’s not too hard to use? Or is the wall structure plan that I have adequate for the 65dB isolation we’re talking about? That plan again being:

(Exterior Siding + furring strip for siding)
15mm fire-rated sheathing x 2 Layers - staggered with tape and mud)
9mm structural Plywood x 1 Layer
33cm/13” of air gap filled with fluffy insulation
Vapor Barrier
15mm of fire-rated gypsum x 2 Layers with Green Glue in between

Thank you so much!
Keith



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#52

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2021-Jun-25, 00:44

I do hope you are still around, Keith! I've been out of action for a few months, due to health issues, but I'm trying to get back into things now, so if your project is still on, maybe you could update your thread with the latest situation, and let us know if there are any issues holding you up, that we might be able to help with.

- Stuart -



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#53

Postby kwow » Thu, 2021-Jul-08, 15:24

Hey Stuart (and everyone)!

I hope you’re doing better with your health issues.

Yeah, my project is going but rather slowly. As of now, the foundation has been done, filled that with silica sand and lined it with styrofoam/expansion joint, and had the top slab poured.

Getting ready to have the concrete floor finished with epoxy next week.

I have a quick question about mudding and taping drywall. There's the nylon mesh type tape, and there's the paper type tape. I remember hearing/reading somewhere that paper is better because paper is stronger, it doesn't have holes like mesh + the fact that you use more mud (under and over the tape), etc.

How inferior or less effective is using nylon mesh tape compared to paper tape from insolation point of view? I ask because here in Japan, they don't use paper tape hardly at all for whatever reason, and the labor costs more if I have them do paper.

I would appreciate any insight.

Thanks
Keith



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#54

Postby SoWhat » Thu, 2021-Jul-08, 17:07

Greetings Keith,

My two cents: mesh tape is VERY difficult to use in corners (it is tough to fold; paper tape is pre-creased), so most professional installers (at least here in the US) don't use it. Also, as I recall, it requires a different sort of drywall compound, although it is likely more common there since paper tape is less common.

All the best,

Paul



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#55

Postby kwow » Fri, 2021-Jul-09, 04:53

Hi Paul

Thanks for your reply!

Fortunately (?) the corners will have backer rod + caulk so no need for taping in the corners: just the seams.

I just recently found out that in Japan, the mesh tape is the norm. Based on my research, I guess in the US and other places, for new construction = paper tape (for strength and cheaper cost), and for small repairs = mesh tape is common.

The reason that I asked is because
It's going to cost extra $400-500 for the mud if I go with the paper tape (which seems ridiculous to me) + since it's not common to use paper tape here in Japan, I'm not sure how good of a job they will do with it.

I need to think and decide if the extra cost is worth the difference that it may or may not make.

Thanks again!

Keith



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endorka
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New Home Studio build in Japan

#56

Postby endorka » Fri, 2021-Jul-09, 08:10

An approach I used recently, albeit on relatively small walls, was to fill the corner and butt joins between plasterboard sheets with backer rod & caulk, then plaster over the top of these with tape & mud.

The caulk means that even if the panels shift a little over time, a crack won't appear between them. This is important to maintain the isolation of the leaf.

But the finish won't be amazing, and you can't paint on top of caulk. A a skim layer of mud over these seams covers the caulk up, giving a nice paintable finish. If this cracks it's not a big deal as the caulk underneath won't, and the seal is preserved.

It works for corners and butt joins.

Cheers!
Jennifer



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#57

Postby kwow » Fri, 2021-Jul-09, 12:31

Hi Jennifer

Thanks for your input.

Wow, you used backer rod and caulk + mud and tape! Did you use nylon mesh tape or paper tape?

Thanks,
Keith



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#58

Postby SoWhat » Fri, 2021-Jul-09, 13:33

I'm not sure how good of a job they will do with it.


I would give it a miss then. The cost savings is good too!

you can't paint on top of caulk


I've had success painting over Big Stretch (they note it is paintable on the tube).

a skim layer of mud over these seams covers the caulk up, giving a nice paintable finish.


Yes indeed. I've done this with cheap (read: completely unpaintable) caulks. Works great!

All the best,

Paul



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endorka
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New Home Studio build in Japan

#59

Postby endorka » Fri, 2021-Jul-09, 13:45

kwow wrote:Source of the postWow, you used backer rod and caulk + mud and tape! Did you use nylon mesh tape or paper tape?


I used mesh tape for the butt joints and steel beading for the external corners. Sloping internal angles I used the tape as well. For internal 90 degree corners I just put a thin coat of skim over the caulk. No idea how well the latter will last!

The steel beading was a massive help with external corners. You can get something like this for internal sloping angles too. In hindsight I would have done this.

Cheers!
Jennifer



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New Home Studio build in Japan

#60

Postby kwow » Fri, 2021-Jul-30, 13:57

Ok, wow
A problem ... potentially a big one.

The builders screwed up and made the side walls of the concrete foundation the wrong thickness (actually, one side correct and three sides wrong). So they made it 150mm instead of 170mm. What's the big deal? Well, 2 layers of drywall for the outer isolation wall are supposed to rest on the concrete "lip" as well as the backer rod and caulk are supposed to go in there.

I think, you might get the picture more clearly but looking at the images.
Foundation Problem.jpg

Foundation screw up.jpg


My question is, if anyone knows the answer, what can I do/use to add about 20mm thickness to the concrete side walls? Of course without it easily cracking and/or falling apart?

If anyone knows a good material and/or method, please let me know. I appreciate it.

Keith




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