Tiny All-In-One room

Start your own studio thread here: Goals, plans, layouts, treatment, speakers, questions, queries, comments...
.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#1

Postby .dio. » Fri, 2020-Nov-27, 21:24

Hello to everyone,
Finally after months of reading and learning, is time to start my own project! As the title describes I have the luck to be able to dedicate a room of my house to create a little home studio. Its dimensions are L: 3,74m W: 2,91m H:2,50m and is part of an old 50's house built of 70cm stone outside walls, 25cm solid brick inside walls, concrete tile floor, concrete ceiling and a solid wood 3cm door. The house is ground floor and there is another residence above.
I already have done some work in Sketchup and put some ideas in you can play with, which you can find in the following link:

https://mega.nz/file/51UEiZRK#1vzCiyLIi ... Io77qyG174

Here is the empty room sketch:
Dio Ministudio bare room.jpg


And here is a photo of how it actually is:
IMG_1587.jpeg


Some additional data:
dio ministudio amroc calcs.png



The purpose of the room mainly is to be the best control room it can be according to its size, and also to have the ability to make a decent recording in it, mostly spoken voice and occasionally an acoustic instrument.

Things that I must do:
1) do something with HVAC. Since it is just a single room I think is will be relatively easy, but still I am searching and learning.
2) decide how I must treat the room to have a good sonic result with the minimum space consumed.

The biggest problem of all is the budget. I work as a sound engineer in the live industry and as you can imagine with the covid situation most works have stalled and I have no stable income, so the choices will be made with this in mind and with slow pace..

The heavy wall construction has already given good isolation from/to the outside world (nearest neighbour @ 4-5m.. ) with the weak link be the double-glazed window measuring 35-something db Loss just outside of it. I don't usually work with high SPLs, but there are dogs barking in the neighbourhood and airplanes frequently passing so I have to take care of this.
What I have done is to take care of the door: I beefed the simple solid core wooden door with a layer of 5mm mlv 10kg/m2 and an extra 30mm mdf layer and the result is within expectations (still needs a little tweaking with the seals):
IMG_2831.jpeg

Pink noise playing in the room (blue) and the result just outside the door (purple).
My diy door.png

Note that I didn't make a super-heavy door because the house is quite old and I didn't want any surprises with cracked jambs etc...

After done that, I took my baseline measurement, the mdat you can find here:
https://mega.nz/file/RkMxSYJL#KDEZxVp4FuHYzZaPwtiOpUGHfGnwMwGmVYGovxWhF1I

and some screenshots:
Dio Ministudio baseline wtrl.jpg

Dio Ministudio baseline spctr.jpg

Dio Ministudio baseline rt.png

Dio Ministudio baseline ir.png

Dio Ministudio baseline fr.png


Keep in mind that the room was not completely empty while measuring, there was a small drawer and cabinet in, things that will remain in place anyway.

Below is what I have in mind doing for this room:
60cm of hanger at the back wall 20cm insulation on the door , 20cm insulation +10cm air gap in the "refection zone", 30cm absorptive ceiling, angled slats at the back half of the room (to keep some brightness where the recordings would happen) and flushed monitors with slot resonators in the lower and upper section of the speakerwall (an idea that came after seeng the results of this build http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21269&hilit=Door+seals&start=180, and maybe a limp mass absorber between the monitors for that 45hz mode..
Dio Ministudio.jpg


I am also thinking of an alternative layout with soffit wings extended the more I could extend them, letting more room free with the cost of less absorption on the side walls.
Dio Ministudio alt.jpg


It seems that it has a quite good raytrace image too at least.
dio ministudio alt hor raytrace.jpg


And lastly the hvac part. A mini-split will take care of the air-conditioning and a small fan (I believe this https://www.solerpalau.com/en-en/in-lin ... 0v50hz-re/ will do) the ventilation. Since my walls are one leaf (and because of the lack of space) I will use one silencer for the fresh and one for the stale air.
Calculations:
Three people max 25x3=75m3
To obtain the 1,5m/s speed I need 13,3cm diameter register or almost 140cm2. I plan to use 10cm pipe and at the last meter 16cm (200cm2) with a 10x30 (300cm2) output (or whatever dimensions close to that). Will this work?
For the silencers I triple the cross section area (from 100cm2 to over 340cm2) and add one more baffle to the Gregwor design.
Dio Ministudio hvac.jpg


I will be happy to read your comments and suggestions!



User avatar
Starlight
Full Member
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed, 2019-Sep-25, 12:52
Location: Slovakia, Europe
Contact:

Tiny All-In-One room

#2

Postby Starlight » Sun, 2020-Nov-29, 19:07

.dio. wrote:Source of the postI work as a sound engineer in the live industry and as you can imagine with the covid situation most works have stalled and I have no stable income ...
Yes, I think the situation is affecting most, if not all, of us in the music insustry to some extent these days.
.dio. wrote:Source of the postThe house is ground floor and there is another residence above.

(nearest neighbour @ 4-5m.. )
Something I don't understand: if there is a residence above you then those neighbours will be closer than 4-5m. Where is your nearest neighbour?
.dio. wrote:Source of the postA mini-split will take care of the air-conditioning and a small fan (I believe this https://www.solerpalau.com/en-en/in-lin ... 0v50hz-re/ will do) the ventilation.
If you look at the technical specifications for this range of fans you will see that the TD-160/100 N SILENT model is perhaps not as good at the next model up, the TD-250/100 SILENT. Neither are silent - that is just the model name, not how they operate. The larger model spins at a slower low speed (approximately 25% slower) and at that low speed it pumps more air through and is quieter than the smaller model. I would suggest you look again at the different fans and think about whether getting the next bigger one with its quieter operation will be of more benefit to you than the smaller, presumably cheaper, and noisier model.



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#3

Postby .dio. » Sun, 2020-Nov-29, 20:10

Hello Starlight and thanks for commenting,
Starlight wrote:Something I don't understand: if there is a residence above you then those neighbours will be closer than 4-5m. Where is your nearest neighbour?

I should have expressed this better. The neighbour above is not affected by me working, so there is not any problems with that, The next nearest neighbour is at 4-5m...

Starlight wrote:If you look at the technical specifications for this range of fans you will see that the TD-160/100 N SILENT model is perhaps not as good at the next model up, the TD-250/100 SILENT. Neither are silent - that is just the model name, not how they operate. The larger model spins at a slower low speed (approximately 25% slower) and at that low speed it pumps more air through and is quieter than the smaller model. I would suggest you look again at the different fans and think about whether getting the next bigger one with its quieter operation will be of more benefit to you than the smaller, presumably cheaper, and noisier model.


Do you mean its noise can come through the vents or it will be annoying in the area around it? From their specs the TD250 indeed seems an overall better machine, with a much better performance chart and I understand that in my tiny place paired with a speed controller it will be as loud as a sleeping baby.. Here the TD250 cost double money from the TD160 (€130 vs €70), so you believe it is worth it?
One more question about the vents: my plans show that I will need short runs (as you may have seen), whet type of vent is more suitable, straight plastic or flexible insulated?
Thanks again
dio



User avatar
Starlight
Full Member
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed, 2019-Sep-25, 12:52
Location: Slovakia, Europe
Contact:

Tiny All-In-One room

#4

Postby Starlight » Mon, 2020-Nov-30, 06:32

.dio. wrote:Source of the postDo you mean its noise can come through the vents or it will be annoying in the area around it?
The noise that a fan produces will indeed travel along the duct. Any noise that can be heard externally would not matter as the fan will be outside your room, not inside. To stop that fan sound - akin to the rumbling of a distant train if you are standing in a tunnel - flexible duct will stop the fan from vibrating the duct. Solid duct is usually preferred because it causes less disruption to the airflow. The fan should be before the silencer box, which, from your diagram, I think it is, as any noise will be made much quieter by the silencer.
.dio. wrote:Source of the postHere the TD250 cost double money from the TD160 (€130 vs €70), so you believe it is worth it?
Is having a quieter studio worth the extra cost? That is your decision for your studio. It will not affect me what you choose but if I can help you make positive, informed decisions, then you will be happier knowing why you made that decision.
.dio. wrote:Source of the postOne more question about the vents: my plans show that I will need short runs (as you may have seen), whet type of vent is more suitable, straight plastic or flexible insulated?
From what I understand there is not a set rule for studios. Some people use solid duct whereas others use flexible duct. I chose solid duct everywhere apart from short lengths of flexible duct on either side of the venilator (the big box where the fans are). If you are interested, read the description above the 5th photo in my topic, post 80.



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#5

Postby .dio. » Mon, 2020-Nov-30, 15:15

Starlight wrote:Is having a quieter studio worth the extra cost?

Considering the fact that only one silencer will be used then yes, I guess the TD250 is the better choice, after all it is not that much of a cost finally..
Having a more capable fan will also count for the use of flexible duct I am thinking of using for the inside the soffits part.
Does the rest of the calculations seem correct?

Thanks for helping
dio



User avatar
Starlight
Full Member
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed, 2019-Sep-25, 12:52
Location: Slovakia, Europe
Contact:

Tiny All-In-One room

#6

Postby Starlight » Mon, 2020-Nov-30, 19:10

.dio. wrote:Source of the postDoes the rest of the calculations seem correct?
Sorry, dio, I did not respond to your other calculations as I am not certain and I did not want to guess or mislead you. Someone else will need to help you with the rest of the calculations.



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#7

Postby .dio. » Sat, 2020-Dec-05, 16:48

Wandering around in the John Sayers forum I found these topics:

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... p&start=15
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14201

their rooms are almost identical in dimensions to mine, and also John Sayers himself has given some skp files, so I gave it a try:
Dio Ministudio JS 1 rt.jpg


Dio Ministudio JS 2 rt.jpg


The first one seems nice and doesn't consume much space but its raytracing is not what one could expect. Since these "walls" are slot resonators is there any meaning in raytracing? Am I missing something here?
The second maybe is more promising, are there any serious disadvantages is the "sawtooth" design?

Thanks,
dio



garethmetcalf
Full Member
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun, 2020-Jan-19, 14:35
Location: Derbyshire, Englad

Tiny All-In-One room

#8

Postby garethmetcalf » Sun, 2020-Dec-06, 16:22

Hi
I might be missing something but it doesn’t look like the source for the ray tracing is the front of your speakers, which it should be??

Cheers
Gareth



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#9

Postby .dio. » Sun, 2020-Dec-06, 17:08

Hi Gareth,
The source of raytracing is the left speaker, the process was done with the Soundman's Raytracing Tool, but I didn't include it in the jpeg because the image dominated by the tool and the traces were not very clear. (see below)
Dio Ministudio JS 2 rt tool.jpg


I've redone the raytracing of the two options with the Amrock Raytracing Skethpad as it is faster and more readable...
Dio Ministudio JS 1 rt amrock copy.jpg

Dio Ministudio JS 2 rt amrock copy.jpg


dio



User avatar
ericwisgikl
Active Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun, 2020-May-31, 15:15
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina..

Tiny All-In-One room

#10

Postby ericwisgikl » Mon, 2020-Dec-07, 12:16

Hi dio,

How did you do to get two sources into amray tool?

Cheers,

Eric



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#11

Postby .dio. » Mon, 2020-Dec-07, 15:02

Hi Eric,
It’s just printscreens of the two sources overlayed in photoshop...

Dio



User avatar
ericwisgikl
Active Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun, 2020-May-31, 15:15
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina..

Tiny All-In-One room

#12

Postby ericwisgikl » Tue, 2020-Dec-08, 22:24

.dio. wrote:Source of the post Hi Eric,
It’s just printscreens of the two sources overlayed in photoshop...

Dio


Thank you!

Cheers,

Eric



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#13

Postby .dio. » Mon, 2021-Jan-04, 16:09

Happy new year to everyone, and a wish to try and make 2021 a better year.
Small room-big update for the beginning of the new year: I finished the back wall hangers and I think regarding their size it was a success.
I used Knauf Ultracoustic insulation (5kPas/m²) 100mm on walls/50mm on hangers and 200mm above the door. The hangers core is 4mm mdf, the choice of which was a result of the simplistic thinking that a 4mm thick 750kg/㎥ mdf surface would have closely the weight of a 12mm thick 440kg/㎥ Homasote same surface. Also I cannot find any Homasote where I live, mdf is everywhere.

Back Hangers model.jpg
Sketch up model

IMG_3027.jpeg
Frame

IMG_3032.jpeg
Hangers

IMG_3033.jpeg
Hangers L

IMG_3034.jpeg
Hangers R


Measurements following:
Waterfall, first with the hangers and then the empty room for reference
Dio Ministudio bacwall hangers wtrl.jpg
Hangers waterfall

Dio Ministudio baseline wtrl.jpg
Baseline waterfall


Spectrogram, first with the hangers, then the empty room for reference
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers spctr.jpg
Hangers spectrogram

Dio Ministudio baseline spctr.jpg
Baseline spectrogram


Impulse response, hangers
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers ir.jpg
Hangers IR


RT60, Hangers
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers RT60.jpg
Hangers RT


RT60 Hangers-empty room comparison
Dio Ministudio baseline-hangers RT60 compare.jpg
Baseline-hangers RT comparison


Frequency response, hangers
Dio Ministudio backwall hangers fr.jpg
Hangers FR


mdats:
dio Ministudio 73º baseline.mdat
Baseline
(20.24 MiB) Downloaded 521 times
dio Ministudio 73º baseline.mdat
Baseline
(20.24 MiB) Downloaded 521 times

dio Ministudio 73º back wall hangers.mdat
Backwall Hangers
(9.21 MiB) Downloaded 574 times
dio Ministudio 73º back wall hangers.mdat
Backwall Hangers
(9.21 MiB) Downloaded 574 times


To my -untrained- eye the installation seems successful. By looking the RT comparison alone we can see that the rt has reduced to half, even in the very low frequencies below 80hz. Spectrograms are another fun graphs to watch: all that spikes below 400hz are greatly damped, even that 45hz monster. One can notice that in the hangers version that mode has shifted to 42hz, because travelling in insulation the speed of sound is reduced and it takes more time to make that 60cm to the wall, so it "thinks" is a bigger room.
The rest of the spectrum is nicely ironed as well.
Same applies to the waterfalls: all those long modal "legs" in time are beautifully shortened with that 89hz almost disappeared, something visible in the frequency response also.
Would using homasote or fibreboard produce better results? Who knows ? What are your comments?
Next step, door treatment and HVAC!

dio



garethmetcalf
Full Member
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun, 2020-Jan-19, 14:35
Location: Derbyshire, Englad

Tiny All-In-One room

#14

Postby garethmetcalf » Mon, 2021-Jan-04, 17:46

Interesting stuff and look good results.
I’m intrigued that your mdf and rock wool hangers are working as the homasote stuff that’s often recommended seems hard to come by in the UK.

Have you more treatment planned?

Gareth



.dio.
Active Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat, 2020-Jan-25, 16:57
Location: Greece..

Tiny All-In-One room

#15

Postby .dio. » Mon, 2021-Jan-04, 18:20

I was a little sceptical myself, but I even John Sayers suggests alternatives so I thought it was a relative safe risk.
For comparison see a triple graph below: baseline-wall insulation without the hangers-final construction.
It is clear that the hangers do their job below 150hz.
Dio Ministudio baseline-insul no hangers-hangers RT60 compare.jpg


garethmetcalf wrote:Have you more treatment planned?

I do plan a lot of treatment to follow, see top view:
Dio Ministudio.jpg


What is not shown is 30cm porous absorber I am thinking as ceiling treatment.

Dio




  • Similar Topics
    Statistics
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests