Soundman2020 - Studio Design Forum

Hi All,

I am doing a bit of a repost from John Sayers Forum.
Hi All,

After the third year in my new home, I have begun construction in earnest on my 2nd gen studio in West Virginia. I have been reviewing my design and thought before I got too far along, I would go ahead and start posting I greatly appreciate all the info and time people have put into this forum. I am posting this build for others to learn. My previous studio build can be found here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7254

Looking forward to your comments,
Cheers,
Kevin

Here are the basics of the new studio:

Studio Purpose: I am building a semi-commercial space for live instrument recording, podcasting, some videography and other related uses. Semi-commercial means I intend to register this as a business, but will not be my primary source of income. Live instrumentation means most typical rock/alt/folk band arrangements, vocals, bass, guitar (amped, acoustic), drums, etc. I intend to record musical albums, audio projects and one offs, as well as mix. I will possibly also rent space to a few fellow engineers who need studio space.

Studio Structure:

Walk out basement studio build. Approx 1200 total sqft
two walls are completely underground the other two are essentially at grade.
Cement block walls. Drylocked, 2" XPS Insulation, 2x4 stick framed interior walls, batt filled. Double 5/8th drywall for most walls.
94" ceiling height.

Space divided as:
2 tracking rooms
1 iso booth
1 RFZ control room
stairs/hallway/green (Will provide airlock/ separation.)
1 full bath (existing)

Upstairs (not studio space) traditionally wood framed 3bd ranch house 28x50 (1400sqft). 2x10 floor joists. Home was built 2006.
Attached 26x28 2.5 car garage


Limitations: This is in my own home and have no other residents to be concerned with. There are no building restrictions, zoning, permitting or codes to follow. (I will follow NEC). I am in a mostly rural area but neighbors are close (within 100'). The closest neighbor has a motorcycle shop, so this may pose a serious problem, but I have a good relation with him and may be able to avoid “scheduling” conflicts. It is not practical for me to isolate my rooms/house for bikes that can exceed 110db. (older bikes intentionally built loud).
The space needs to add value to my home and be convertible to useable space if the need to move/sell arises. I have read almost all of John Sayers entire forum, have Everest and Gervais, as well as other resources and realize the limitations I am in and accept those. I am working within my budget and with what I have. If for some miraculous reason the studio project takes off and I can afford it, I will build a completely separate building elsewhere on my property later. For now, I am going to accept the limitations

I am not installing drywall to the underside of the flooring above. If needed later, I will install MLV and hardwood floors above (which will be more cost efficient and offer a greater return on investment. I am not going to use z channel. I am concerned with ceiling height and it's overall efficiency... IE it may just not be worth the cost and effort, especially since I have a single beam that I will not be able to effectively frame around for the main live room and control room. The same approach for dual framed walls, it's just not worth losing the space, the time, effort and money (again most walls already have a block wall underground and there are complete rooms between recording spaces.

Budget: As with 99% people on this forum, I have a limited budget. I intend to pay for things out of pocket, my estimated materials costs are about 9-10k (excluding HVAC) (UPDATE, my real material costs have been 12-15k plus HVAC was 12k). I will do all construction, installation myself (excluding HVAC). I will have an electrician inspect all electrical work I do. I may post my budget spreadsheet at the end of the post if people will find that helpful. DM me in the meantime if you are interested in the breakdown. If you intend on contracting out the work, you will probably need to add 50-60% for markup and labor.

Electric: Main panel 200amp in garage. I am running a 60amp sub-panel to run all studio electrical outlets. All lighting and shop/bath outlets will run from circuits off the main panel. The sub panel is to facilitate ease of installation (easier to run 1 thick wire from main panel to the basement than all circuits). I also wanted easier access to a tripped breaker if the need arises. (UPDATE, I have also learned that it is good to have a breaker panel on seperate floors of the house from the electrician). There may be additional benefits such as creating a common ground/neutral for all circuits the studio equipment will be on. I have also considered a power conditioner for this panel, but I am not certain.

Lighting - lighting is very important ! Not just for light, but for mood and impression. I have put considerable time into designing the lighting system (still not done). I intend on having three or 4 lighting systems per room.
Work - general lighting for setup/cleanup/teardown. (LED strip lights)
Task - lighting for music stands/audio console/pictures areas (Track lighting?)
Ambient - sets the mood, can provide indirect lighting (christmas lights, misc moveable pendants, etc...)
Theatrical - allows for artist specific lighting, color changing, special effects, etc... (special theatrical fixtures or FX lighting)

HVAC: I am planning on installing HVAC, but will contract this out. Depending on cost, this may or may not get done upon initial completion, I am currently getting bids and discussing system design options with contractors. I will use either an extended forced air heat pump (current system) or zoned ductless. This will depend on costs. I will post more details and decision in the thread. (UPDATE - I have installed a Mitsubishi inverter, zoned mini-split system. This now runs the whole house, upstairs as once zone, and the studio is split between control room, tracking room and large room).

Layout:

See the attached layout. (layout is from HomeDesigner). The bath / hall was completed when I moved in. The layout was somewhat predetermined due to the placement of the existing bath and HVAC/Hot water systems, stairwell and exterior door.



As of this post I already have everything framed except the control room. That room is going to be done last (as it currently is storing all equipment). I will need to look at the framing angles, splay walls soffit mounted etc...all of that is still in design.
UPDATE - As of posting on Stuarts forum, 90% of construction is complete. I have moved into the treatment phase for most rooms.

Control Room - the control room is still under design, so I am very open to suggestions at this point.

Acoustic treatment: I retained a considerable amount of my absorbers from the previous studio build. I will add where necessary and build new ones, where necessary.

Failure is always an option. This is the short, painful story of failure.

My initial plan for my studio was to acid stain the existing concrete floor. I put in some serious time/effort to clean, wash and rinse the floor (weeks worth of time). I tested an area under the stairs, and it looked good. I then applied several colors of acid stain. The floor turned out beautiful. It was exactly what I had in my mind. After neutralizing, I went to do the final rinse, i couldn't get the wash water clean. In fact, i kept noticing that the color seemed to wash off the more I rinsed an area. I took photos and sent them to the acid stain manufacturer. They said there was only one possibility, which is that there is fly ash in the concrete. I live in WV, of course there is fly ash in concrete here. I mentioned to them that there did not appear to be any written notice to not use acid stain on concrete that contains flyash. They have since added that notice to their installation guide. I am not blaming them for my lack of knowledge. This post is intended to be yet one more reminder to all of you to do your own homework before investing your money. And that even then, failure may happen. Move on.

Here is a link to the album. https://goo.gl/photos/dSqryRLYEWXbJsRK7
was supposed to look something like this:


You'll see pictures of the second attempt to treat the floor. I had already purchased tinted sealer for use on top of the stained floor (supposed to be almost black). So the red color was supposed to somewhat lighten and contrast the dark floor underneath, which would have been the goal. Instead, I ordered an additional gallon of black tinted sealer to mix with the red color (in varying amounts to create several darker red and brown colors). Not the planned outcome, but it will serve its function.


Finally, i put down 5 coats of wax as the wear layer. I spent extra money on a satin (low gloss) wax which should have been great for the acid stain, but looks a bit muted on the more standard tinted sealer... live and learn.

Hi All,

I do intend to actually write and post photos in this forum (without links) about my build process and choices... but, I have had minimal time to put in the effort, so for now... I am going to share a link to my studio build album. Feel free to ask questions of my life...errr building choices. I post almost daily photos. Small bites of the elephant.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TP4pAEfyoasws8Rf6

I am currently in the electrical, wiring rough in phase. My anticipated completion date will be Fall 2019. Completion in this sense means thru paint minus acoustic treatments.

(UPDATE - again, I'm way past this now... also past my "Fall 2019" completion date... lol)

Cheers,
Kevin

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:54 pm
In the thick of wiring, and design!

I'm working towards a soffit mounted monitor for my new control room. I currently own a pair of Event TR8s, and I really like them, but wanted to upgrade if I was going to take the time and soffit mount the monitors. I was originally thinking of Adam A77X, but I think I was talked out of that when I learned that the baffle width should be 3-5 times the width of the speaker woofer. My next choice is becoming the Adam A8X.

Here's a summary of all the best notes from a few posts about CR design and soffit monitor layout. Feel free to chime in and make suggestions or corrections.

Listen position should be between 30%-38% of room depth. (my target was 38).
Speakers should be aimed aprx 12-18" past listen position.
Max down angle of speaker should be 15d, but ideally below 7. (I am keeping it towards 7, as I want them as high as possible to get them above my desk and computer monitors.

Author: sandledfoot [ Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:05 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
I have questions...

I was under the impression that 60 gives you a wider sweet-spot (laterally) than that of 90, but your ear is more used to a direct on axis, so better to be closer to 90?

If my speaker is to be located at least 20% away from the side wall, then it seems the widest image I will be able to get in my size room is 60 degree.

Does that include the full width of the baffle? IE if the baffle is 40", does the edge of the baffle have to be 28" in? (28" is my 20% of my total room width, 120")

I believe I read that the speaker should be off of the front wall by 4"... what is the formula or standard or ... WHY? I am trying to maximize my room space and don't want the speakers into the room any more than necessary. 4" seems like a lot... what about 2" ? (just an example) The drawings show the speaker 8" off the front wall, which is close to equilateral triangle. (I know I am not beholden to that, it's as they say, just my starting point).

I have another questions I could not find a clear answer too. How do you determine the angle of the additional 'wing' baffles (circled in red)? I seem to run out of wall space.. in the overlay, my walls are in blue, and the baffle can be shown intersecting the wall directly...


how does the middle area between the baffles get filled? Hard or soft surface? It seems that there is an abundance of windows and doors typically located there. For me, I plan on mounting a large LCD/LED TV monitor, but this can change.


Do I seem to be on the right track?

PS- I hope John does not mind my using his sketch as a reference...



SketchQuestion.jpg [ 374.76 KiB | Viewed 149 times ]
Author: Soundman2020 [ Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Be careful with raising and tilting your speakers... Yes it is possible, if you do it with a lot of care, and carefully check your reflection angles, and figure out your comb filtering, and how you will deal with that... But not recommendable. The highest angle I've ever done is a bit less than 5°, but that was far a room considerably larger than yours...

You say:

Quote:
I want them as high as possible to get them above my desk and computer monitors
Then you have the wrong layout for your desk and computer monitors!

Design your desk to be as low-profile as possible, and make sure that nothing sticks up above it very much. Then place your video screen as far forward as you can (beyond the desk, not on it), and as low down as you can while still being able to see it. If necessary, go with a bigger screen, further away, rather than a small screen up close. Keep the screen(s) well away from the direct path between speaker and ears.

Also, depending on your speakers, you can probably raise them a little WITHOUT needing to tilt anything: Check the dispersion angles and frequencies, and as long as your ears are still within the "good" section of the dispersion, no more than a couple of degrees off-axis, you'll be fine.

Quote:
thinking of Adam A77X, but I think I was talked out of that when I learned that the baffle width should be 3-5 times the width of the speaker woofer. My next choice is becoming the Adam A8X.
Ummm... the woofer diameter on the A77X is 7". The woofer diameter on the A8X is 8.5", so based on that "rule", your baffle surround would have to be 4.5 inches WIDER for the A8X, than it would for the A77X...

That said, the A8X is probably he better choice for your studio. If you are considering speakers in that range, then it's worth taking a look at some of the offerings from Eve Audio: they have nice stuff too...

Quote:
Listen position should be between 30%-38% of room depth. (my target was 38).
I try to keep it in the range 32% to 42% if possible. But that's just a starting point... sometimes you might need to break the rule, or bend it a little...

Quote:
Speakers should be aimed aprx 12-18" past listen position.
I think you are referring to the intersection of the speaker axes behind the engineer's head? Yes, that's correct. Once again, it's just a guideline: depending on the room, you might need to have the intersection closer to your head, or further away.

Quote:
I was under the impression that 60 gives you a wider sweetspot (laterally) than that of 90, but your ear is more used to a direct on axis, so better to be closer to 90?
60 and 90 what? Once again, I assume you are referring to the intersection angle behind the engineer's head? In either case, you still want your ears on-axis to the speakers, are close to on-axis. Your imaginary axis line drawn out from the acoustic center of the speaker should graze past the tip of your pinna in both cases. In your diagram, they seem to be a little too far out.

Quote:
I believe I read that the speaker should be off of the front wall by 4"...
That only applies to speakers set up on stands in the room: it does not apply to soffit-mounted speakers.

Quote:
what is the formula or standard or ... WHY?
It's all about baffle step response and SBIR from the front wall. Basically, your speaker emits low frequency sound in all directions, not just heading towards your head. The sound radiated "backwards" (behind the speaker, going towards the front wall of the room) hits the wall and bounces back, then interferes with itself causing phase cancellation at the mix position. The frequency where that happens depends only on the distance between the speaker and the wall. If the distance is between about one foot and four feet, then that produces a very deep "dip" in the low frequency response as heard at the mix position. THis is called "SBIR", for "Speaker-Boundary Interference Response" That's why, for people who are NOT going to have their speakers in soffits, the only solution for a small room is to push the speaker up tight against the from wall. That forces the SBIR dip up higher in frequency, out to the low end where it can't be treated and is very noticeable, into the low mid range, where it is less noticeable and where it CAN be treated... But you also need acoustic treatment between the speaker and the wall, and that will be about 4" thick, thus, you need to leave a 4" gap for that.

But none of the above applies to you, since you are planning to soffit-mount your speakers, so there won't be any SBIR from the front wall. That's one of the major reasons for soffit-mounting: it eliminates front-wall SBIR.

However, you WILL still need some space behind your speaker! It needs ventilation up the back to keep it cool, and there are other reasons why it should not be directly against the wall, so you still need to leave a good gap there.

Quote:
I am trying to maximize my room space and don't want the speakers into the room any more than necessary.
Then don't tilt them down! That wastes space... If you leave them vertical, with no tilt, then they can be closer to the front wall...

Also, offsetting the speakers on the baffle face outwards, instead of inwards, can gain you a little extra space.

Quote:
how does the middle area betweetn the baffles get filled? Hard or soft surface? It seems that there is an abunduance of windows and doors typically located there.
It could be hard, or it could be soft, depending on what the room needs. I normally do REW tests at many points during the construction of the room, then decide on the front wall treatment based on that, when the time comes.

- Stuart -
Author: sandledfoot [ Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:25 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Stuart,

As always, you give me (and others) so much help, thanks! I understand through your posts that there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule, but a series of guidelines to be used to accomodate your exact situation. I've been trying to design with that in mind.

The Adam A77X was the dual 7" monitors, so I was kinda assuming it acted somewhat close to 14" woofer... but I'm glad your OK with the A8X, they're a bit cheaper. I have looked at some of the Eve and Barefoot monitors as well, just depends on pricing I guess.

As for the tilt, I definitely will consider re-positioning the video monitors, and my desk is 31" high from the ground, so fairly standard. I wouldn't want something much lower because I wouldn't be able to sit under it... it definitely comes an ergonomics issue at that point. I should mention, that the bottom of the speaker as shown is only 4'2" above floor height. (In my first post, i mentioned my total ceiling height was only 95".

I'm still unsure of the side walls and angles coming off of the baffle. Any ideas for that? Is that just angled to prevent parallel walls to avoid slap echo? I also understand its supposed to be angled to direct reflections behind the mix position, but how is that determined? I can dray a line, but sound moves as a wave and it's hard for me to visualize the geometry.

Thanks again, your advice is much appreciated!
Kevin
Author: Soundman2020 [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Quote:
As for the tilt, I definitely will consider re-positioning the video monitors, and my desk is 31" high from the ground,
That's a little high, actually. "Standard" desk height is 29" (depending on who you believe...), and most desks are 28" to 30". Studio desks are generally a bit lower, since you normally have a console sitting on it: I often use 26 1/2 to 27" for my studio desk designs. That still gives you enough knee-room.

Quote:
I wouldn't want something much lower because I wouldn't be able to sit under it... it definitely comes an ergonomics issue at that point.
Try it! With a 27" desk made with a 1" top, you should still have at least 2" between the bottom surface and your legs. That assumes you have your chair set to get your ears at the correct listening height.

Quote:
I should mention, that the bottom of the speaker as shown is only 4'2" above floor height.
The height of the bottom, top, or center of yoru speaker is irrelevant... What matters is the height of the acoustic axis. That's the point from which the sound seems to emanate, and is the key reference point for all measurements related to the speaker. The standard height for the acoustic axis is 120cm above the floor, which is 47 1/4". Depending on your speaker and room, you can normally go a litter higher than that. The objective is to have the acoustic axis of the speaker at the same height as your ears, or a little higher. Everything else in the room should be designed around that. The speakers are the very reason why the room exists at all, so the room should be designed around the speakers.

Quote:
i mentioned my total ceiling height was only 95".
You might want to consider flipping your speakers "upside down", with the woofer above the tweeter. That can sometimes help to get the woofer away from the modal nulls that happen at 50% of room height. Or you might WANT to have your speaker in the modal null, if you are expecting modal issues at problematic frequencies.

Quote:
I'm still unsure of the side walls and angles coming off of the baffle. Any ideas for that? Is that just angled to prevent parallel walls to avoid slap echo? I also understand its supposed to be angled to direct reflections behind the mix position, but how is that determined? I can dray a line, but sound moves as a wave and it's hard for me to visualize the geometry.
The entire concept behind RFZ design is that all of the surfaces at the front of the room are angled to redirect first-order reflections away from the mix position, leaving an "empty" region around the engineer's head where there are no reflections at all.

For high frequencies, sound behaves mostly like rays of light: for low frequencies, it behaves more like a balloon inflating. For intermediate frequencies, it behaves somewhere in between... sort of like an expanding cone. So, by carefully looking at the dispersion characteristics of your speaker, you can figure out what frequency range will be heading out at which angle, then based on that, figure out how it will reflect.

Having said that, you can get a pretty good idea from the "ray tracing" method. I have created a "ray-trace rainbow" in Sketchup, which I use when I'm designing studios. Here's an early version of that:


I've since developed that into a more sophisticated template that I can just attach to any speaker.

You use that by just seeing where the sound is going, and what angles it is hitting your surfaces at. You can then draw a line out from that surface, perpendicular to it, at any interesting point, see what angle the sound is ARRIVING at that point, then draw another line out from the same point, mirror-imaged, so it leaves at the same-but-opposite angle. You then assume a similar "rainbow" leaves that point, but you take into account the frequencies. For example, if you are looking at a ray that originated 60° off-axis from the speaker, then there won't be too much high-frequency content in that, so you'd be looking mostly at how mids would be reflect off that surface. Then you adjust the angles of the surfaces as needed, to ensure that you don't get any specular reflections at the mix position, or within a sphere around it.

- Stuart -
Author: sandledfoot [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:01 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Stu,

I will take a close look tonight to see what the angles line up to be for first reflections. I think that was the key part I didn't udnerstand, so that helps. As for desk height, I am leary on changing the total height of the desk, but... it is on casters and if I take the casters off, then it would lower the desk by 2-3"... i'll have to look when I get home to be sure. My side car desk is at 26" so the faders are at wrist level. I built both of these desks a few years ago in my previous studio location and designed them to be taken with me. it would be a shame if I have to build new ones!

I see what your getting at with the speaker height, so I will revisit the angles. I am concerned that the 3/5 placement within the baffle is going to give me a problem (as it seems to run into the wall), so I am not sure how to get a 60d splay, keep the baffle width at 40" (for 8"woofer) and then add a wing wall to reflect sound away from the mix position. but, i'm sure it can be done!

Thanks for your time again,
Kevin

Attachments:
desk_heights.JPG
desk_heights.JPG [ 128.36 KiB | Viewed 135 times ]
Author: sandledfoot [ Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
So before I continue down this path of control room design... i've had a thought and I'd like some opinions.

I currently mix on Event TR8s and I like them. I am considering new Adam A8X monitors to soffit mount (as mentioned above), but I am concerned that the Adam A8X will not be that much of a departure from the current TR8, (not withstanding better top end). Specifically, I am looking for something that can be louder when needed. I don't mix at high volumes, but do push it when listening to the kick, bass and a few times before running my finals. That being said, I am starting to look at some higher wattage monitors. The Adam S2V and S3V seem like a good fit, but this is probably going to be beyond my price range... maybe. If this is an investment that I can use for 10years +, then I'll consider it.

for context, price listed per pair for readers perspective:
Adam A7X ($1,500)
Adam A8X ($2,000)
Adam S2V ($3,000)
Adam S3V ($5,000)
Eve Sc307 ($2,890)
Eve SC407 ($5,700)
Neumann HK310 ($3600)

Again, I really only want to design this control room once, and as Stu has reminded me, choose the speaker then design around that.

My question is this...

What would be an appropriate size/wattage for the control room of my size (12x18). Is there a target SPL that you aim for?

been following a few other threads here...
https://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/view ... 2&start=30
Author: Soundman2020 [ Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:06 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Quote:
I am concerned that the Adam A8X will not be that much of a departure from the current TR8, (not withstanding better top end). Specifically, I am looking for something that can be louder when needed.
I'm not sure I follow you here: How much louder than 120 decibels do you need? That's already ear-damaging territory... If you are playing that loud, then I sure do hope you are wearing hearing protection... 120 dB is the threshold of pain, according to some sources (others say 125...). That's insanely loud for a control room. Most engineers mix at around 80 dB, and push it to 90 or maybe 100 to "check the bass", but pushing it to 120 is not a good idea at all. Why would you need more than that? I must be missing something here...

Quote:
The Adam S2V and S3V seem like a good fit,
... and they both put out the exact same maximum sound level as the A8X... Actually, the S3V can go 4 dB louder, but I really doubt you'd be able to hear the difference between 120 dB and 124 dB.... because you'd already be deaf after listening to the 120, so you'd never even hear the 124 at all!

You also have the SC407 on your list, which puts out 1 dB LESS than the A8X, so if you are looking for higher maximum sound level, then the SC307 and SC407 are not it. But if you are looking for fantastic quality, then either of those is a great speaker, as is the A8X. Here's a room I did with a pair of SC407s a while back: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 That's a fairly large room, and there's way more than enough "oomph" in those guys to more than fill the room.

There's a typo in the last one on your list: It's the KH301, not the HK310. It's also a fine speaker, but it puts out the lowest sound level of all of them, at only about 110 dB. Still fine for the majority of rooms.

Quote:
What would be an appropriate size/wattage for the control room of my size (12x18)
Wattage is irrelevant. Wattage only tells you how much power the amp can produce without clipping. What matters is how much sound you get out of the speaker, for that amount of wattage. That depends on the efficiency of the driver design: higher efficiency drivers can produce more sound from the same number of watts, so looking at the wattage isn't very useful. Especially when you start to see that some manufacturers play games with the power ratings in watts, and quote peak figures, instead of RMS. It's been a while since I last saw it, but a few years ago there was a fad among some manufacturers of really lousy, low quality speakers to quote the power rating in the fictitious units of "Watts PMPO", meaning "Peak Music Power Output"... which basically meant how much power could the driver absorb before it fried in a large puff of smoke, when you pumped in stupidly huge amounts of power for a tiny fraction of a millisecond....

For studio monitors, forget watts: look at the actual sound pressure level that the speakers can produce. Your ears hear decibels, not watts.

(OK, before some pedantic purist comes along and says that I'm wrong, and you DO hear watts, let me clarify: you hear acoustic watts, not electrical watts. Power amplifiers put out electrical watts, which the driver turns into acoustic watts. And the number of acoustic watts you get depends, once again, on the efficiency of the driver. A typical speaker pushed to its peakwill only put out about one watt of acoustic power, probably less... when you consider that the amp is producing many hundreds of electrical watts to achieve one acoustic watt, you realize just how inefficient drivers really are... And to put all that in perspective, a full symphony orchestra puts out about one watt of acoustic power).

Hope I didn't confuse you too much!

- Stuart -
Author: sandledfoot [ Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:10 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Stuart,

I understand, and I agree, I am not planning on mixing at over 90db very often, and then in short increments to check something specific or the final mix. I am also at the limits of my knowledge in terms of understanding how speaker efficiency and wattage convert to db, but I do understand that as a general rule, the more watts available from the amplifier, the cleaner the speaker can deliver audio (in addition to being louder). That is what I am after, in terms of being able to have something that is capable of delivering very clean audio, at high volumes, without stressing the amplifier, speaker or sacrificing quality. I mean, there is a reason the S series costs more and has more watts than the AX series, right?

I have a good bit of experience with live sound, so i'm familiar with keeping tabs on db and and understand the basics of sound reinforcement, i'm just trying to apply that to the control room environment.

Its good to hear the A8X is something your still encouraging... it's definitely more affordable than the other options. I am going to see if I can do a bit more homework, look at your thread and go from there.

As always, I appreciate your input.

Kevin

Author: sandledfoot [ Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:34 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
All, I have been absolutely terrible in posting updates, but I promise, there has been work! I have hit a wall in the control room design, so I'm hoping someone can give me some help.

Here's what I have.

The control room is 144.5" x 219.5" x 93.5". As stated in the previous posts, I was limited to layout by the physical boundaries of my house... I had 4 walls that I could not change. Dimensions are of the interior finished drywall space.
I need to now design the soffits and treatments.
I have a skp file below of what my plan is currently and a screen shot of that plan. I am unsure of the physical angles and whether or not I am in the right ballpark. Any comments would be most helpful.

SKP file was too big to upload... I can email if desired...



Author: Paulus87 [ Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:58 am ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Hi,

It looks like you've already set the listening/speaker position so the rest is making everything fit. The angle of the splayed side walls is not enough to deflect first order reflections from the listening position. You probably do not have enough space to splay it sufficiently, so you'll have to use absorption. The angled side walls in your current design are not needed, you can keep them if you wish but they will have to be absorptive, and effective down to whatever frequency you'd like to attenuate/eliminate.

Paul
Author: sandledfoot [ Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:19 am ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Paul,

Thanks for looking it over. It appears i used the wrong angle for the bounce when I was looking for the first reflection. If i shorten the side wall, to increase the angle, then I can get the ? I can always put an absorption hanger or front on the reflection position? I guess the other question I have, is how far back or what should be the distance away from the mix point? I drew in a 4ft diameter 'sweetspot' circle that appears to be refection free in this configuration.

The first shows a closeup of the first reflection angles. I am really only picking up the 40 and 35dg angles, everything past those bounce behind the mix anyways. You can see some underlying ray traces if it were to hit the wall without the splay, and those are what would hit the mix position, so seems the splay wall would still be warranted.

The second shows the full length of the ray trace, and appears to show I will need some serious absorption on the back wall and corners! I plan on building some traps in the corner, and if you look at the layout earlier in the post, you'll see that the entry door is in the corner... so I will be able to fit one trap in each corner with a max depth of 8", which should be fine.

Thanks All,
Kevin




Author: Paulus87 [ Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:52 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
sandledfoot wrote:
Paul,

Thanks for looking it over. It appears i used the wrong angle for the bounce when I was looking for the first reflection. If i shorten the side wall, to increase the angle, then I can get the ? I can always put an absorption hanger or front on the reflection position? I guess the other question I have, is how far back or what should be the distance away from the mix point? I drew in a 4ft diameter 'sweetspot' circle that appears to be refection free in this configuration.

The first shows a closeup of the first reflection angles. I am really only picking up the 40 and 35dg angles, everything past those bounce behind the mix anyways. You can see some underlying ray traces if it were to hit the wall without the splay, and those are what would hit the mix position, so seems the splay wall would still be warranted.

The second shows the full length of the ray trace, and appears to show I will need some serious absorption on the back wall and corners! I plan on building some traps in the corner, and if you look at the layout earlier in the post, you'll see that the entry door is in the corner... so I will be able to fit one trap in each corner with a max depth of 8", which should be fine.

Thanks All,
Kevin


Hi Kevin,

If your speakers have only an 80 degree horizontal dispersion above the Schroeder frequency of your room (or, the range of frequencies of interest) then it looks quite good actually. I am just OCD when it comes to this, if it was mine then I would be ray tracing it all the way from the speaker baffle and baffle to splayed side wall junction etc. But, that may be unnecessary for you and your speakers.

Regarding the mix position, I aim for 37.5% of the length of the room with the speakers crossing anywhere from 6" - 2' behind my head (depending on the room). How wide and long the RFZ needs to be depends entirely what you're satisfied with. If there's a console then I would aim for the entire length and width of the console to be in the RFZ, if there's more than one mix position such as a producer's desk behind then I might want to try and include that too. Ultimately, as long as you have an area which is big enough for your needs in order for you to make the most accurate mix decisions then that is all that is required.

Paul
Author: sandledfoot [ Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:38 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Paul,

Thanks again for the feedback. I've read so much about guidelines to follow, in tight correlation of how a poorly done soffit can destroy the sound of the room, i'm a bit nervous to put it in action, but ... I hope to have most framing done this weekend. I know this will be a curve ball last minute, but I am designing for the Adam SV3, which I do not currently own. I do have a pair of Adam A8X and I will use those until I purchase the SV3, if I need it! But, I figure I can safely overbuild the frame and baffle, and then when needed, rebuild the enclosure box and alter the faceframe (baffle). I have not taken any measurements of the room yet, but I will this weekend...I am still waiting on the doors! But once I have the soffit and someof the treatments up, I will re-measure and make adjustments as necessary.

Thanks,
Kevin
Author: sandledfoot [ Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:42 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Quick question... I have emptied the room of everything and I am preparing to do the layout for the soffit and splay walls. I will be taking 'before' treatment measurements, and before the soffits. I have stands to position the monitors where they will be soffit mounted adn will take some readings. However, I do not yet have the entry door! My doors have not shipped from the manufacturer, and will be several more weeks out. Should I even bother taking measurements or should I absolutely just wait until the doors arrive? It seems like I will probably want to mix with the door open mostly, so I didn't think it would be a huge deal? Thoughts?

Thanks,
Kevin
Author: Paulus87 [ Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:18 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
sandledfoot wrote:
Quick question... I have emptied the room of everything and I am preparing to do the layout for the soffit and splay walls. I will be taking 'before' treatment measurements, and before the soffits. I have stands to position the monitors where they will be soffit mounted adn will take some readings. However, I do not yet have the entry door! My doors have not shipped from the manufacturer, and will be several more weeks out. Should I even bother taking measurements or should I absolutely just wait until the doors arrive? It seems like I will probably want to mix with the door open mostly, so I didn't think it would be a huge deal? Thoughts?

Thanks,
Kevin


If you're concerned you could just prop up some drywall or OSB or whatever you have lying around

Paul
Author: sandledfoot [ Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:06 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Erie Sound Studios Build (Sandledfoot returns)
Hi All,

I managed to clear out the control room and take some empty measurements. I had hoped to reuse some of my previous studios treatments, but I decided to just start from scratch.

As posted above, I am planning on soffit mounting my Adam A8X, though I am still working on the design. I am unsure I will do bass hangers, or just fill with rockwool under the speakers. Johns design also shows a divider plate without gaps between upper and lower sections, and I have seen other designed to allow for more movement. I plan on wing walls that are mostly broadband absorbers, 4 clouds (one angled in the front, two large overhead and one in the rear), and then rear wall/corner traps.

I have a measurement attached as well as a link to the MDAT. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GShtyTcg7BxdtTmNAjKRzJ5vWn6q3YT4/view?usp=sharing

OK,

First post that is up to date. In the last post, I shared the first empty measurements. I am looking at building soffits and treatments. I have been re-reading all posts on the Sayers forum for soffits, and now I am reading through this forum. Stu, do you have that soffit article that you mentioned you were going to write?? what is the new school soffit technique?

The only absolute 'rule' that i find is that it needs to be heavy duty and rigid. But it seems how you fill it, and sealed/unsealed and the placement is optional.

What I am planning so far: (based on John's Small Studio skp)
I am going to make a somewhat 'modular', remove-able, 3/4" plywood front face that can accomodate a new monitor box. it will be appx 48"x48". Under the baffle, I will use cloth faced 703 to catch any reflections from the desk.
I will build a tight fitting MDF box for the A8X, with a gap in the rear, with holes in the top and bottom for air movement.
I have some ductboard leftover that I will build direct air ducting from the bottom, thru the speaker box and out through the top.
I am planning on filling the soffit with rockwool as a super chunk.

I am stuck at the very beginning. I have been using John Sayers Small Studio skp Soffit treatment as my guide. I am confused if the back of the soffit should be sealed or not, and then how is it really sealed since the 12" at the bottom of the floor is open and so is the 12" to the ceiling. and it must have an airpath for cooling the back of the monitors (self powered of course).

I have the soffit frames built. I am mounting the speaker box and will then take measurements to cut the baffle. I will do a super chunk on the bottom and will line the top with 3.5" all around rockwool.

Greetings Kevin,

Just an observation from the photos you provided: The box in your first photo has some significant splits where the screws are. It might be wise to sure up those cracks with some adhesive caulk since you're unlikely to ever take this wall apart (save for some very unfortunate circumstance). What's odd is that it looks like you drilled pilots and countersunk the screws, so I wouldn't have expected the splits.

Or the splits may look worse in the pictures than they really are. If that's the case, no worries.

All the best,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Aside from the sideways pictures, thanks for the comment. I was frustrated with those cracks, since I even tested those specific screws on some scrap mdf, but... oh well. Those boxes are glued and screwed, so I don't think the cracks will pose any problem. Those boxes are tight, since i built them around the monitor themselves, and i had a heck of a time getting the speakers out. I did put a bit of pastewax in the inside so putting them back in should be a bit easier... we'll see. I hope to have the entire soffit filled with insulation tomorrow and make a few more measurements. I will also make a speaker vent out of some ductboard. I am a bit nervous to cut the front baffle, but needs to be done.

kevin

sandledfoot wrote:Source of the postI am a bit nervous to cut the front baffle, but needs to be done.

You know the saying: measure twice, cut once.

Don't ask how I know that is really good advice! PS. Would you like some slightly short off-cuts I have spare?

Greetings Starlight,

You know the saying: measure twice, cut once.

Our carpenter uses a variation of that famous saying when he makes a measuring mistake:
"You know a job isn't done right until it's done twice."

All the best,

Paul

I'll reglue the cracks.

Here are some alignment shots...

Not sure why the last post didn't include my images, but here are the alignment and the progress from this weekend. I got the baffles completely built, the top 'sealed' and stuffed. it's 98% full of rockwool. I used some ductboard to create vent chase above the speaker. I also cut the speaker hole, and man that was not fun. The next monitors I buy are going to be square! The photos show the mounted baffle. I need to stain, finish, cut the vent holes and add a few more lag screws. The front baffles weigh just shy of 100lbs. I know the 'flaw' in my design is that in order to adjust the speakers, I have to remove the front baffle... which is a supreme pain. I hedged a little by by setting my low shelf to -1. I hate making an adjustment without first measuring, but I'm going to get the rest of the treatments (wing wall and clouds, maybe additional rear wall absorption) in place before I measure again, because taking those baffles off are not going to be fun, and I only want to do it once (if I have too).

still working... I did lighting, built an additional rear wall trap, fixed the mis-wired from manufacturer lighting, finally received my doors, and those are in progress now for paint and stain... seems to be the next last big thing to start really testing the room.

I am also working on some other details, such as the bottom to the soffits, rear covers, and I need to cover the second cloud. I will need to rebuild the front cloud frame, since I built it square and it needs to be a trapezoid to fit the new soffits. I'm sure i'll use it elsewhere.

once I get the door in, I will get some additional testing done to see if I can hopefully better understand the room and needed treatment. I have concerns about the last test I did, which still showed rather large decay times. I'm hoping those are coming from the open (missing) door and hallway area. I intend to hang 3 more clouds, one in front, another behind mix and one in the back of the room.

more teaser pic... the wing walls are pushed away from their final spot to allow me to insulate and finish outlets... once I have those done I"ll attach them to the wall. need to cover the rest of the traps, but you can see some of the fabric... still to be treated w/ fire retardant... i will use my paint sprayer and spray all of them at once in place. (It's actually recommended from the manufacturer!)

cheers,
kevin


Front


Side


Rear