Home Mix Room Overhaul - DIY Panel Build - w/ REW Charts/3D Sketchup

[SoWhat]

Greetings Trevor,

"Trompe L'Oeil Studios - You Won't Believe Your Ears"

Better trademark that SOON! Brilliant!

All the best,

Paul

[shybird]

Source of the post Better trademark that SOON! Brilliant!

I'm on it! haha thanks Paul. This is going to be next level.

[shybird]

I'm back with some BIG UPDATES that I'm stoked beyond belief to share with everyone!

Over the last week and a half or so, I've been going back and forth with Stuart through PM's. I've been trying to decide whether to go all out and build soffits for me room, or to just settle with a less time intensive and cheaper treatment of the room. And I've decided to GO ALL OUT! Haha

We started discussing the soffit process and he mentioned how I would need to select which monitor I would be using in order for him to properly design the soffits. Since I don't want to go through this huge soffit building process for my pair of Yamaha HS8s (great mixing tools but super fatiguing and not worth all this effort imo)...Stuart got me searching for monitors by Eve Audio. The 2-way SC208's ($2000 for the pair) were definitely in my price range but if he said I could flex and get the 3-way SC3070's ($4000 for the pair) I would be even happier.

All in all, I called every store in Nashville but nobody had Eves of any kind. Stuart then recommended that I do google search for local studios that might have a pair. I found 3 studios listing various Eves they used. Sent 3 emails...got 2 replies. The first one no longer had them as they were building a new studio designed for mixing in Dolby Atmos. They no longer needed the stereo pair or whatever I dunno? They loved them though. The 2nd email came from Michael Wagener (of WireWorld Studios) who has like 50 platinum/gold records hanging in the entry room of his beautiful studio. He's produced and mixed for bands like Metallica, Megadeath, Poison, Skid Row, Janet Jackson, Queen and more. I couldn't believe how kind he was! He had no problems with me coming to listen to his pair of SC407's (a 4-way model that's another step up from the 3070's at $6000 for the pair).

He also had a pair of Adam S3X's (which is what he used before he bought the Eves) but he said he exclusively uses the Eves now because they just have much much better translation. We did some A/B tests and he explained certain aspects of the Adams that always created balance issues such as vocals being to forward and therefore ending up mixing them too quiet. He would then show me how the Eves handles the various issues and it was night and day...not to mention the Adams had a sub hooked up and they still couldn't match the clarity of low end that the Eves had. It was really quite an incredible experience to listen to these.

I also took several mixes of my own which I knew had certain "problems." One for instance has way to much high end information especially in the drum tracks. I had originally mixed them on my Event ASP8's (which I am selling lol) and they always made things sound great in general...I discovered some problems with this particular mix when I moved over to the Yamaha HS8's such as the blaring high frequencies in the drums. The Eves CLEARLY showed this problem as well as some other issues in the mix that I could never quite figure out on the Yamahas. I then played some mixes that I knew were a bit better and the Eves showed me how much better those mixes were, but were also showing me information that I had failed to hear. I wanted to sit there and remix certain aspects! Michael also commented on how the mixes were quite nice (other than the one I knew was bad which he agreed was mainly the high frequency drum issue)...I was pleasantly humbled by his approval. We ended up hanging for a couple hours. I am very grateful for Michael's generosity. Great guy and an incredible producer/engineer.

This story is getting long...sorry. SOOOO I went home and looked on Reverb.com to see if I could find some used pairs of Eves. The 3070's actually haven't shipped to the US yet due to COVID delays so that one would have to be purchased new and in the future. I ended up finding a pair of the SC407's for $4,000 which was the absolute max price I could make happen. I won't mention where these came from unless Stuart would like to chime in on that part or give me permission to mention the details. But anyways, I told Stuart what I had found and he ran some calculations and just did some general wizardry to make sure they would be a good fit for soffits in my room...at 3am he got back to me saying YES they would be fantastic.

I drove to St. Louis yesterday to pick them up (10 hours roundtrip from Nashville). I set them up on some stands last night and I am quite literally in heaven! I cannot believe these speakers. Truly remarkable feat of engineering. They are so detailed. So much depth. The lows and low mids are palpable as if you could reach out and grab them. The upper mids and highs are clinically clear and detailed. They also seem very easy on the ears compared to the Yamahas. The fact that they will somehow perform even better and more accurately once the room is treated properly and these are in soffits, just blows my mind. I can't imagine mixing on something better and more honest. I feel like I'm hearing mixes as they were intended for the first time ever.

As you can see I am very excited!! Here is a photo of the monitors setup in my room as it is now. I will share more details about the soffits and everything as I have more info from Stuart. I know for sure we are going to be able to keep the windows and not cover them which I'm so happy about!

Cheers everyone and thanks for the help and support so far! Much more to come.

Trevor

[SoWhat]

Well now we know who's NEVER leaving the house again...

Congrats!!!

All the best,

Paul

[Soundman2020]

Thanks for the update on your thread, Trevor!

And yes indeed, those Eve SC-407's are really classy speakers. Exceptional, I think. As you noticed, they have a clarity and depth that is not common in speakers in that price range.... That's actually true of most of the Eve speakers.

The "secret" is partly in those strange tweeters: they are unlike any other tweeter (except the ones that Adam uses). The technology is totally different from conventional tweeters: most tweeters have either cones or domes made from some type of very light weight, very rigid material. It has to be light, so that it can accelerate and decelerate very fast (forty thousand times per second!), but even with the best materials available today, they are still not rigid enough and light enough: the surface of a typical tweeter doesn't all move together: it wobbles and trembles and resonates and "breaks up", with different parts moving at different speeds and in different directions. If you look at a slow-motion video of the way a tweeter actually moves, you'd be shocked! So the sound wave it produces is not clean, precise, and well defined, since it does not emanate from the entire surface of the tweeter smoothly.

But the Eve tweeters use a very different concept: something they call "AMT" for "Air Motion Transformer" (Adam uses something very similar, that they cal "ART"). The technical name for this is "Heil Effect", named after Dr. Oskar Heil (the same guy who invented the FET, or Field Effect Transistor... which you are using right now, since your computer or cell phone undoubtedly has a few million of those things inside.... but I digress). Anyway, about 60 years ago, Dr. Heil came up with the concept of the Air Velocity Transformer, which looks something like a miniature concertina or accordion, usually made from a thin, very light weight, paper-like material with thin metallic foil strips applied to each pleat, and mounted in a strong magnetic field. The principle of operation sounds a bit weird, but works extremely well. When you apply voltage to those foil strips, they either attract each other or repel each other, depending on the polarity of the voltage. And as they do that, they force the folded "accordion" pleats to either squeeze out or suck in air between them. Now for the kicker: that "squeezing out" and "sucking in" is five times faster than a normal tweeter can move! Conventional tweeters move air at a one-to-one ratio: the amount that the tweeter dome moves, is the amount that the air moves. The speed that the tweeter dome moves, is the speed that the air moves. And as you probably know, there's a huge difference between the speed of the dome itself, and the speed of sound... in other words, there's a very large impedance mismatch. But with the AMT method, each "squeeze" forces out five times more air, five times faster, so it has a major advantage over a typical tweeter.... and it can also handle frequencies much, much higher than a conventional tweeter. Thus, the impedance match is greatly improved... which is why those AMT devices do not need waveguides, like normal tweeters. The purpose of the waveguide on a speaker, is to match the impedance of the cone movement, to that of the air itself, but with an AMT, the impedance is already closely matched, so the transfer of energy is smoother, and cleaner. The clarity in the high end is amazing, with a Heil Effect tweeter.

Adam and Eve are not the only two manufacturers to use this concept: There are others. There's even a company named after Dr. Heil that makes them. But Eve has perfected them more than anyone else, and their speakers are outstanding.

So, Trevor has now purchased himself a pair of some of the best speakers out there, at any prices, and he got them for a song! I do know the history of this particular pair, as Trevor hinted at, but I won't be going into that right now... maybe at some point...

And as you can hear from Trevor's gushing praise, they are pretty darn good speakers! They can be used either horizontally or vertically (you can remove the center section, with the mid and high drivers on it, and rotate it 90°), but for Trevor's room we will use them vertically (the way he has them set up currently) for several reasons. I actually prefer that orientation for these speakers anyway, especially when soffit mounted. Years ago I spoke to the chief engineer at Eve Audio about doing that, and he agreed that it's the best orientation for soffit mounting those, in most rooms. He also gave me some tips specific to Eve speakers about soffit-mounting them. Great guy, actually: to take the time to talk to me about one specific room, when he's also running one of the most successful speaker manufacturing companies.

If you are reading this, and in the market for new speakers, do take a look at the Eve Audio line up.

Here endeth my plug for Eve. (As most members here on the forum know, I do not accept advertising here on the forum (no spam!). That said, I don't mind talking about products and discussing their advantages and disadvantages, and this is one of those cases. I only recommend products that I know, and have proven themselves in practice, and Eve falls into that category).

Anyway, that's where Trevor is right now: a great pair of speakers, and a lousy room! But I'll be working on a design for soffits for those speakers in his room, and it will be a bit different from typical soffits, because of some of the restrictions imposed by the room. So stay tuned to this thread! It will take a couple of weeks to do that design, as I'm also working on other projects at the same time, but Trevor is probably going to be working on other aspects of his room in the meantime... and probably also spending hours and hours in total bliss, listening to his new speakers!


- Stuart -

[Starlight]

Source of the postThis story is getting long...sorry.

And what a story. Well done, Trevor! I can't wait for the next chapter as I will need to make a similar decision in the coming months.

Source of the post... they are unlike any other tweeter (except the ones that Adam uses).

For anyone that doesn't know, Adam and Eve have something in common: Eve Audio's principal designer is Roland Stenz. He previously worked at Adam Audio. Hence the connnection and some shared approaches to speaker design.

Source of the postSo stay tuned to this thread!

Are you kidding? I ain't goin' nowhere. I am interested to see how you incorporate rear-ported monitors into a soffit mount as I may have to tread the same path.

[Soundman2020]

Adam and Eve have something in common: Eve Audio's principal designer is Roland Stenz. He previously worked at Adam Audio. Hence the connnection and some shared approaches to speaker design.

Right! Hence the name "Eve Audio" too! It's a not-too-subtle Biblical reference: According to the Bible, Adam was created first, then Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs... so in that sense, Eve came out of Adam... So too did Eve Audio come out from Adam Audio... Roland and a couple of others too, if I recall correctly, came out of Adam to form Eve... A cute pun!

By the way, Roland is a nice guy: I've only ever exchanged a few e-mails with him, but he's never too busy to help you out, always willing and happy to give you solid advice about his speakers.

Source of the post Are you kidding? I ain't goin' nowhere. I am interested to see how you incorporate rear-ported monitors into a soffit mount as I may have to tread the same path.

Ahh yes! It's not too hard to do, but you do need to compensate for the rear ports. Another important issue with soffit mounting any speaker, is ventilation. Especially big, powerful speakers like these: you need good ventilation inside the soffit. You can usually do that just with convection: unless you are running your speakers really hot (very high levels for long periods), convection can usually handle it. Otherwise you might need a small fan to help things along. Basically, that convection path is just a clear passage up through the complete soffit, passing behind the speaker and also around it if necessary.

I'll be sure to highlight that in Trevor's build when the time comes. The only part that I won't be sowing in public, is the actual decoupling system that I have developed and use for most of the rooms I do these days. Unfortunately, that part is gonna stay somewhat "secret" for now. (I might release it one day....)


- Stuart -

[shybird]

Source of the post Well now we know who's NEVER leaving the house again...

Congrats!!!

Haha so true! Thanks Paul. So stoked to move forward with the build.

Source of the post And yes indeed, those Eve SC-407's are really classy speakers. Exceptional, I think. As you noticed, they have a clarity and depth that is not common in speakers in that price range.... That's actually true of most of the Eve speakers.

Thanks Stuart! Yes, these things are truly exceptional. I've been listening as much as I have time to. It's such an experience. And the best part is how honest they seem to be. When I play old mixes of my own through them, you can immediately hear all the flaws as compared to more professional mixes. You can also really hear different production styles and mix styles. They show you so much about what is actually happening in the music and how everything is interacting. I'm super excited to work with these going forward and equally excited to get my lousy room up to snuff! Hahaha

But the Eve tweeters use a very different concept: something they call "AMT" for "Air Motion Transformer" (Adam uses something very similar, that they cal "ART").

Once you explained all of this to me over a PM, I was completely enlightened haha. I never realized how dome tweeters were adding so much distortion/artifacts to the sound...and how we get so used to it that hearing a ribbon tweeter for the first time can actually be a strange experience. It all made sense after that. And listening to the ribbon tweeters now is so nice because I know I'm hearing a more accurate representation of the audio! I'd rather learn how to work with something like that than the "smeared" sound of dome tweeters as Stuart described it.

Adam and Eve are not the only two manufacturers to use this concept: There are others. There's even a company named after Dr. Heil that makes them. But Eve has perfected them more than anyone else, and their speakers are outstanding.

Now that I've heard them, it's very easy to believe the last part of your statement above.

If you are reading this, and in the market for new speakers, do take a look at the Eve Audio line up.

I 1000% SECOND that statement!

Anyway, that's where Trevor is right now: a great pair of speakers, and a lousy room!

Haha indeed! Can't wait to fix the weak link...

and probably also spending hours and hours in total bliss, listening to his new speakers!

How did you know?!?!

And what a story. Well done, Trevor! I can't wait for the next chapter as I will need to make a similar decision in the coming months.

Thanks!! Yes it was quite surreal how it all came together. Best of luck making the decision. It took a lot of thinking for me.

For anyone that doesn't know, Adam and Eve have something in common: Eve Audio's principal designer is Roland Stenz. He previously worked at Adam Audio. Hence the connnection and some shared approaches to speaker design.

Yes! When I learned about this it was pretty fascinating.

Cheers everybody! Stay tuned.
Trevor

[shybird]

I also wanted to mention an aspect about listening to these speakers that is really changing the game. Obviously, when I've listened to the music in the past, I can tell great production from mediocre or poor production. But with these speakers, it's like I can hear the sonic decisions that were made by the producer/engineer. Like, ohhhh I see what you did there. Ahh that's an interesting EQ there but it makes sense because of this other element in the mix over here. It's like pulling the blindfolds back and learning "styles" and "preferences" of mixing. It's something I thought I could hear before in other speakers, but now I realize that too much information wasn't getting through to truly HEAR the details on this kind of a level. It's quite the revelation in my listening experience as an audio engineer. I just keep listening to different records I love and hearing all the ways in which they are uniquely brilliant in their production style.

For what it's worth to anyone else!

Cheers
Trevor

[shybird]

I'm wondering if I should be using A or C weighting for measuring the ambient "noise floor" in my room as it is now. Obviously this is a home studio and not a professional double wall construction. From what I read, A weighting takes the lows out of the situation and C weighting measures more of the entire spectrum.

So currently in my room at mix position (with HVAC off):

A weighted (fast): 20-25dB
C weighted (fast): 40dB-58dB (measurements are very sporadic up and down and I can't notice by ear what could be causing these wild shifts)

I also know there's not much I can do about these numbers as it would be out of the question to build a room within a room. Are these numbers concerning? From what I read, a 20-30dB noise floor is considered "professional," but down to 10dB is possible. But is that for A or C weighting as they differ hugely in my room!

Thanks everyone!
Trevor

[SoWhat]

Greetings Trevor,

I believe you should be using C weighting (I think "slow" as well, but not sure).

All the best,

Paul

[endorka]

I've always measured this with C slow, as Paul says. That's how we measure the signal (music), so presumably the noise should be measured in the same way to make useful comparisons.

Please measure again with slow weighting and let us know the result. Sometimes rumble, e.g. from distant road traffic noise can bump up the measured noise level without it being hugely perceptible to the human ear. Fletcher Munson and all that!

Cheers,
Jennifer

[shybird]

Thanks Paul and Jennifer! I remeasured using C weighting "slow" and I got a range from 39-69dB in a matter of about a minute (again HVAC off). It literally shot straight from 39 to 59 at one point and there was no perceivable change to my ears. No car driving by or anything like that. There is a highway about 3 blocks away (approximately 0.3 miles if you could walk straight to it) but there are a ton of tall houses and trees between my place and the highway (which must help some because the traffic noise is very quiet when you step onto the front porch).

I am quite surprised by the "peaks" of the ambient noise within my room. I've always thought it to be pretty quiet. Even people have commented on it when coming over. I've always figured the double windows helped (I have storm windows and doors throughout the house).

Should I be concerned about this? Obviously it's not ideal but I've never noticed it affecting my work...but who's to say it isn't lol.

Cheers
Trevor

[SoWhat]

Greetings Trevor,

Methinks you should also measure with the HVAC on. Since you need to keep your gear properly dehumidified/humidified (and breathing comfortably never hurt either), it seems like the right move.

You're lucky you're not on a flight path. We live at the point where aircraft stall for landing approaches. My late mother-in-law lived right on the Concord landing path in Putney just a few miles from Heathrow. Talk about loud.

All the best,

Paul

[shybird]

Source of the post Methinks you should also measure with the HVAC on. Since you need to keep your gear properly dehumidified/humidified (and breathing comfortably never hurt either), it seems like the right move.

That sounds like a good idea! I will get that done tonight for comparison.

And man am I glad I don’t live by the airport! Occasionally planes and helicopters but nothing too crazy.

Cheers
Trevor