New Home Studio Build

[Soundman2020]

Great progress there! Looking nice.

Source of the post 1) I know the outer leaf is supposed to be insulation facing insulation of inner leaf and it is throughout entire build but can I hang drywall on the walls just in the foyer for cosmetic purposes?

Sure. The foyer is not part of the isolated area of the studio, so there's no problem putting up drywall on the outer-leaf studs there.

2) The concrete slab that was poured for the addition (tracking room) has a small expansion joint between it and the existing room (control room) but its not very wide. Should I get a concrete saw and make a better cut to keep from coupling?

You could if you want, but check with your engineer to make sure you can do that. It's probably not necessary, though. To get a usable improvement, you'd need to cut all the way through the slab, but that's probably not a good idea for other reasons. I'd leave it like it is, unless your structural engineer OK's it, and gives you detailed instructions on how to do it.

3) Do I need to finish out the wall of the outer shell where there used to be the old garage door? Its the wall in-between the 2 rooms. If I finish this wall out technically there will be 3 walls there. I would need 3 pieces of glass for window as well. I'm really confused on what I should do here.

Maybe you could post a couple of pictures of that part? And a diagram? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, so it would be good to get a better idea.


- Stuart -

[Soulshaker Studios]

I have 3 things I'm trying to figure out.
(1) Should I finish out the wall in-between the live room & tracking room that is part of the outer shell? You can see it in the pic. If I finish it out I will have 3 sheets of glass and walls like drawing.

(2) If I build my control room like drawing would I use 2 layers of Drywall with Green Glue inside Control Room and 2 Layers of Drywall with Green Glue on outside of control room on same studs? 1 wall assembly.

(3) Can I get away with framing iso room in live room like drawing with walls attached to inner shell of live room or do I need to make room within a room?

[Starlight]

Jason, I want to avoid answering your questions directly as Stuart will do that so much better, but I would like to show you some principles that may help. I feel sure you know the basics but something is not quite right in your current plan.

First off, I have revised your plan.

3803double.jpg (72.76 KiB) Viewed 37903 times

3803double.jpg (72.76 KiB) Viewed 37903 times

To avoid 3 layers of glass, slide the whole control room toward the live room such that you only have 2 panes of glass.

If the outside walls of the garage and extension will be the outer walls and the inner walls of your control room will be the coffin shape you have drawn, then to work as a MAM system that means all the area I have coloured will be the A, the air, in the airtight MAM sytem. Now, this cannot happen as I can see the door from the live room into that space as well as the door labelled as entry to house. That means your coffin needs its own, airtight outer wall to give you a MAM system, something like this:

3803shell.jpg (73.71 KiB) Viewed 37903 times

3803shell.jpg (73.71 KiB) Viewed 37903 times

I have added a suggestion for doors so that you can get into the control room. That leaves the outer space as access space; it will no longer be the A in your MAM.

What I am trying to do is to help you think of each room as a MAM system but, to avoid a 3 wall and 3 window system, the inner wall of one space needs to be the outer wall of the other space. Imagine that the outside garage wall did not exist, like this:

3803gone.jpg (72.77 KiB) Viewed 37901 times

3803gone.jpg (72.77 KiB) Viewed 37901 times

That better shows how each room has an inner and outer wall and each pair of walls works as a system together. It also shows how the overlap works so that each room still has two walls and/or windows but you don't end up with three. The existing garage wall that I have hidden is not part of the airtight system and so is just any old wall that just happens to be there.

Okay, over to Stuart for the detailed answers.

[Soulshaker Studios]

Thank you!!!! This makes total sense. I could not wrap my head around how to deal with it before. So on the walls of control room I can now have a 2 leaf system like I did on live room. Like this picture here correct? The outer walls around control room can go up and attach to existing ceiling in garage and inner control room walls not connected. I do have an extra layer of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue on the outer walls of garage that will help too.

[Starlight]

Source of the postSo on the walls of control room I can now have a 2 leaf system like I did on live room. Like this picture here correct?

In a word: yes.

[Soulshaker Studios]

Starlight I’m seeing something I’m not sure of. If I move the control room forward as you proposed won’t that connect the inner window wall with the outer shell wall? How would it be inline but not connect with top of outer shell wall?

-Jason-

[Soulshaker Studios]

Source of the post Starlight I’m seeing something I’m not sure of. If I move the control room forward as you proposed won’t that connect the inner window wall with the outer shell wall? How would it be inline but not connect with top of outer shell wall?

It seems sound would come from live room into outer room if it were completely unattached. I understand how outer shell around control room would block that but not at the top unless I'm missing something. Would the control room outer shell need to have completed ceiling over inner shell? Maybe thats what I'm not understanding.


.

Source of the post Jason, I want to avoid answering your questions directly as Stuart will do that so much better, but I would like to show you some principles that may help. I feel sure you know the basics but something is not quite right in your current plan.

First off, I have revised your plan.
3803double.jpg
To avoid 3 layers of glass, slide the whole control room toward the live room such that you only have 2 panes of glass.

If the outside walls of the garage and extension will be the outer walls and the inner walls of your control room will be the coffin shape you have drawn, then to work as a MAM system that means all the area I have coloured will be the A, the air, in the airtight MAM sytem. Now, this cannot happen as I can see the door from the live room into that space as well as the door labelled as entry to house. That means your coffin needs its own, airtight outer wall to give you a MAM system, something like this:
3803shell.jpg
I have added a suggestion for doors so that you can get into the control room. That leaves the outer space as access space; it will no longer be the A in your MAM.

What I am trying to do is to help you think of each room as a MAM system but, to avoid a 3 wall and 3 window system, the inner wall of one space needs to be the outer wall of the other space. Imagine that the outside garage wall did not exist, like this:
3803gone.jpg
That better shows how each room has an inner and outer wall and each pair of walls works as a system together. It also shows how the overlap works so that each room still has two walls and/or windows but you don't end up with three. The existing garage wall that I have hidden is not part of the airtight system and so is just any old wall that just happens to be there.

Okay, over to Stuart for the detailed answers.

-Jason-

[Starlight]

Jason, I knew there was a picture I had seen over on Gearslutz. I found it in the topic Isolating production rooms from each other? It would be worth reading the entire, short topic as you will get to see that it is Stuart's image and his explanation is so much better than I could have managed.

Here is the image:

Notice how each room has its own detatched wall and that the next room's inner wall acts as the outer wall for the first room.

How does that compare with your studio?

3926-3v2.jpg (81.51 KiB) Viewed 37849 times

3926-3v2.jpg (81.51 KiB) Viewed 37849 times

Your two rooms each room have their own inner wall (coloured orange or blue just to make it more obvious). The challenge you face is to ensure that nothing of the orange room comes into contact with anything from the blue room. The window will probably be the hardest place to make sure that is so. Without looking back through your build, let me ask: are you familiar with door designs, especially the frames? The two door frames do not touch (apart from the threshold when the studio floor is sitting on mother earth as that acts as a good damper) and the gap between the frames is usually sealed with something soft yet airtight, eg. thin neoprene sheet. The same principle applies to your windows: each window will sit in its own frame which is part of the room it sits in. There must be a gap so that neither frame touches the other, otherwise you have a flanking path where sound can freely travel through to the other room.

The principle is simple: untouching rooms. Working out how to do that is where the challenge begins and where Avare's favourite phrase comes in; the one that says something like, "Studio building is 90% preparation and 10% perspiration." Take your time planning this correctly so that you avoid rooms that touch and also avoiding a triple leaf.

[Soulshaker Studios]

hmm

[Soulshaker Studios]

Source of the post Jason, I knew there was a picture I had seen over on Gearslutz. I found it in the topic Isolating production rooms from each other? It would be worth reading the entire, short topic as you will get to see that it is Stuart's image and his explanation is so much better than I could have managed.

Here is the image:
MSM-two-leaf-WallChunk-conventional-NOT-inside-out--three-room--with-corridor--S04.jpg
Notice how each room has its own detatched wall and that the next room's inner wall acts as the outer wall for the first room.

How does that compare with your studio?
3926-3v2.jpg
Your two rooms each room have their own inner wall (coloured orange or blue just to make it more obvious). The challenge you face is to ensure that nothing of the orange room comes into contact with anything from the blue room. The window will probably be the hardest place to make sure that is so. Without looking back through your build, let me ask: are you familiar with door designs, especially the frames? The two door frames do not touch (apart from the threshold when the studio floor is sitting on mother earth as that acts as a good damper) and the gap between the frames is usually sealed with something soft yet airtight, eg. thin neoprene sheet. The same principle applies to your windows: each window will sit in its own frame which is part of the room it sits in. There must be a gap so that neither frame touches the other, otherwise you have a flanking path where sound can freely travel through to the other room.

The principle is simple: untouching rooms. Working out how to do that is where the challenge begins and where Avare's favourite phrase comes in; the one that says something like, "Studio building is 90% preparation and 10% perspiration." Take your time planning this correctly so that you avoid rooms that touch and also avoiding a triple leaf.

Yes I am practicing the room within a room but this one wall seems to be a problem. There is no issue of live room & control room being connected but if I move the control room up as you showed it seems the control room inner and outer walls would be sharing this same wall. I started framing and included a pic. That doesn't seem right. If I put glass in that window and come off of that wall for inner walls and outer walls then they are sharing that same front wall.

-Jason-

[Soundman2020]

Jason, do you have a SketchUp model of your studio? That would make it easier to figure out the issue, and how to solve it.

First, I want to make sure I'm see things the right way:

Is that correct? The LR is over on the right of that photo, beyond the wall, the CR is on the left, the pink insulation and framing visible in the middle is the inner-leaf of the LR wall, and the other wall (closer to the camera, drywall and framing only, no insulation, built inside-out) is the outer leaf of the building itself?

If that's correct, then my next question is: Why is that outer-wall there? Is that a structural (load-bearing) wall that cannot be moved? From the photo, it doesn't seem to be structural. Or at least, there's no framing visible that points to it being load-bearing. So, if it is not load bearing, then wouldn't it just be easier to remove it? That way, your CR could be built in the normal way, and you'd only have two leaves.

Now, if that really is structural and cannot be removed, then probably the best thing to do would be to ignore it: pretend it's not there, and just build your CR in the normal way.

However, the other photo that also has me a bit confused:

IMG_3523.jpg (54.96 KiB) Viewed 37847 times

IMG_3523.jpg (54.96 KiB) Viewed 37847 times

If all of that is your outer leaf, and you now want to build your CR within that shell, then all of that drywall on the ceiling and other walls should probably not be there! You should just have bare framing there. Because on the other side of that drywall there is framing (I assume), and on the other side of that framing you must have the outer sheathing of the building and the sub-floor for the room above, so the drywall visible in this photo is going to create a three-leaf system in those directions too, it would seem. Is this because you have no choice but to do three-leaf up there? IS it because you have a ventilated roof up there? The CR is your existing garage, right?

I'm still trying to understand what you are dealing with, so I can suggest how to proceed, so please confirm the above...

- Stuart -

[Soulshaker Studios]

Source of the post Jason, do you have a SketchUp model of your studio? That would make it easier to figure out the issue, and how to solve it.

First, I want to make sure I'm see things the right way: SoulShaker-room-question-1.jpg Is that correct? The LR is over on the right of that photo, beyond the wall, the CR is on the left, the pink insulation and framing visible in the middle is the inner-leaf of the LR wall, and the other wall (closer to the camera, drywall and framing only, no insulation, built inside-out) is the outer leaf of the building itself?

If that's correct, then my next question is: Why is that outer-wall there? Is that a structural (load-bearing) wall that cannot be moved? From the photo, it doesn't seem to be structural. Or at least, there's no framing visible that points to it being load-bearing. So, if it is not load bearing, then wouldn't it just be easier to remove it? That way, your CR could be built in the normal way, and you'd only have two leaves.

Now, if that really is structural and cannot be removed, then probably the best thing to do would be to ignore it: pretend it's not there, and just build your CR in the normal way.

However, the other photo that also has me a bit confused: IMG_3523.jpg If all of that is your outer leaf, and you now want to build your CR within that shell, then all of that drywall on the ceiling and other walls should probably not be there! You should just have bare framing there. Because on the other side of that drywall there is framing (I assume), and on the other side of that framing you must have the outer sheathing of the building and the sub-floor for the room above, so the drywall visible in this photo is going to create a three-leaf system in those directions too, it would seem. Is this because you have no choice but to do three-leaf up there? IS it because you have a ventilated roof up there? The CR is your existing garage, right?

I'm still trying to understand what you are dealing with, so I can suggest how to proceed, so please confirm the above...

- Stuart -

Yes Stuart,
You labeled everything correct. That wall did have a garage door before I added the addition and it is load bearing. (Image-Early Garage Wall) is before I removed door. (Image-Garage Wall) is after treating wall. The entire live room is a 2 leaf system on 3 sides but the garage door wall is different. Here's what consists in the walls starting from the live room side. 1st wall (Inner Leaf) is- 5/8" Drywall/Green Glue/5/8" Drywall.Studs/Insulation. 2nd Wall is-
5/8' Drywall/Green Glue/5/8' OSB/Studs/Insulation/ on the existing garage side that same wall is 5/8" Drywall/Green Glue/5/8" Drywall.

The area in (image Existing Garage) was already insulated & drywalled. I added another layer of 5/8" drywall with green glue the whole existing garage. I had planned to build out control room like the drawing in (image-Drawing) inside it. I probably screwed this whole thing up. I've gotten some advice from the other forum basically saying

"All those layers you have there combined make a triple leaf assembly. You now have 2 options:

What you really should do is remove the middle layer of drywall (the layer which is inside the cavity attached to the control room studs) obviously you would have to remove the inner face first in order to get to it.

You can apply it to the inner face of the control room wall so that you’ll have:

Live room:
2x layer is drywall - studs

- insulated air gap -

Control room:
Studs - 2x layer of drywall

That will give you the highest level of isolation.

However, the alternative is just remove the drywall layers on the inner face of the control room, then re-apply it by cutting it to fit in between the studs, pressed up against the outer layer of drywall (the layer I told you to previously remove).

That would give you an inside out wall, where you can insulate between the studs and cover with fabric, so in other words the exposed studs become your acoustic treatment framing.

However, your air gap between the control room and live room would now be diminished compared to the first option. If you let me know what the size of the air gap would be in both cases then I can tell you the potential isolation you can expect with each option. Remember the air gap is measured between drywall panels and not just the gap between the framing, and that whole cavity should be filled with insulation. The insulation is your air gap."

Stuart your advice and anyone else's is greatly appreciated.

-Jason-

[Starlight]

Stuart Jason, how are you doing? Has there been any progress with your studio? Covid-19 and storm Isaias are probably not helping.

[lostandfound]

Stuart, how are you doing? Has there been any progress with your studio? Covid-19 and storm Isaias are probably not helping.

....maybe Jason?


ciao Starlight

Lucio

[Starlight]

Jason is what I meant but not what I wrote! Grazie di cuore, Lucio.