Drum room in garage

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alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#16

Postby alienmuppet » Tue, 2023-Jul-25, 08:25

Soundman2020 wrote:It's still a triple-leaf, just not as effective as if it were sealed.


Ah okay, fair enough.

Soundman2020 wrote:A while ago there was a post on another forum (don't recall where) about someone who was working on his studio while playing music inside (helps with the boredom!). At one point, he was working outside the studio with the door closed, and as he leaned a sheet of drywall up against the outer wall, the music from inside suddenly became audible, and he could feel slight vibrations with his fingers, from the sheet of drywall. As long as he held it up close to the outer-leaf, there was an audible effect, even though the "cavity" was completely unsealed. It wasn't huge, but it was noticeable. Sympathetic resonance is a real thing.


My thinking was that if that outer leaf wasn't there at all (in your example) and that sheet was held in the same place picking up the vibrations, then the drywall would vibrate even more because it would receive more energy (previously blocked by outer leaf). So I figured the extra wall / outer leaf would attenuate things so much that the wall next to it would barely be effected. However, I am not experienced with room design so will take your word for it :lol: And yes it'd take up an extra few inches which would be a pain!

Soundman2020 wrote:Your inner-leaf ceiling joists rest only on the inner-leaf walls. No connection at all to the outer leaf. The "inner room" is a complete, stand-alone structure. Not even a single nail can bridge to the outer leaf. So there won't be any flanking through that.


Soundman2020 wrote:This is also why I recommend using OSB as the first layer ob your wall studs: It add a lot of structural integrity to the walls, especially in sheer. The studs themselves do a great job of supporting the weight of whatever is on top of them, but simple stud framing isn't strong in sheer, which is the "side to side" direction along the plane of the wall itself. Imagine a free-standing frame, out it the open with nothing supporting it. Just a sole plate, a few vertical studs, and a pair of top plates. If you go stand at one end of that wall, and push at the top along the wall (in the same direction that the top plates run), you'll see that it isn't strong at all. Without too much effort, you can make it wobble, and with enough force, you can collapse it over sideways. But if you nail a sheet of OSB onto those studs, you can't do that any more. It makes the entire wall a lot more rigid, and very strong in sheer. So doing that to all of the walls gives you a massive increase in structural integrity, which you need to support the ceiling properly.


Okay cool I will do that :) Definately on the inner room. The new outer wall will not be load bearing, so that could be different if there's any benefit to it being different..

Will green glue still be okay if I do [OSB GG Plasterboard] (or maybe [OSB GG FibreCement]) ?

Soundman2020 wrote:Was that on your cell phone with an app, or using a proper sound level meter? Cell phone mics and electronics are not very good for low frequencies, because they are mainly meant to capture your voice as you speak on the phone, and your voice has practically no useful energy below maybe 150 Hz or so. So the mic just isn't sensitive down low. Also, the mic on your cell phone is specifically designed to NOT be omnidrectional, in order to reject ambient noise as mush as possible. Acoustic measurement mics (such as those on proper sound level meters) MUST be omnidrectional, so they can capture the full sound field from all sides. So a cell-phone app can give you a rough idea of levels, but isn't accurate, and especially not down in the low end.


I was using my phone at the time yes. I used the NIOSH app, which after comparing with my calibrated UMIK-1 seems pretty accurate, even down low. The IPhone mic is pretty good, and the NIOSH app is calibrated for that particular phone (so probably boosts the bass). But I hear you, I will use the calibrated mic for the proper tests. 115dB does seem to be mentioned as a general rule of thumb for drums peaking so it probably isn't far out, though again there were other instruments playing. Really I need to do the test in-situ, and measure next door too while playing (still organising that).

Soundman2020 wrote:Second question: Did you have the meter (or app) set to "C" weighting?


Pretty sure I had it on C.

Soundman2020 wrote:So when testing isolation, you should always use "C", not "A". (The good thing is that most municipal noise regulations specify levels in "A" weighting, so you have the big benefit there, of the cops come knocking on your door!)


Haha, will remember that. Hopefully if I do this right the cops won't come knocking ;) Also the neighbours would call/text/nip round first before even considering that.

Soundman2020 wrote:Don't go too dead! Drums in a dead room sound pretty awful, actually. Keep some life in the room, or it will feel unnatural, and you won't enjoy your drumming.


Okay will do. Chances are I wouldn't be able to deaden it completely anyway, the absorbion material would probably need to fill the room ;) I'd like to be able to record demos in there if I can, and it is too small to get any kind of good reflections, that is why I wanted to deaden it. But yeah, a little bit is fine. Also I will likely be using headphones most of the time (with kit mic'd up) so I would add ambience on my mixer, kit always souds better that way unless I'm in a good room.

Will let you know as soon as sound test is done. In the meantime I posted the latest schematic of the room in my previous post, be interested to get your comments. It is probably smaller than you imagined, that door is just in an annoying place. I did breifly think of making that door open into the room, but I didn't want to have to go through the practise room to take things in and out of the garage, plus it'd mean having 3 doors.



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#17

Postby alienmuppet » Tue, 2023-Jul-25, 12:09

RE wall between garages, it looks like the thickness is nearly 12", maybe 11 3/8". One of those concrete blocks here is 100mm thick which is just under 4". So either they have a layer of 3 without anything inbetween (or an extremely thin layer of cement), which seems unlikely, or they have 2 with some kind of air gap. Nearly 100mm gap by my reckoning. Could be wrong. They do sound kinda hollow when I knock on them.. which seems weird considering it is meant to be concrete blocks. I think if it was packed with a middle layer of blocks, it'd feel more solid..

Is this... good or bad? I'll try and get a more definitive answer but not sure if I will. As I mentioned though this wall may not be *that* big a deal other than flanking things upwards to the next floor, because it is only their garage. Their living space is like mine: on the next floor. Kitchen is on the ground floor though (behind garage).

I'm going to update diagram to show this new information, plus the kitchens and driveways and where the streets start, road, etc.

I found this which might be interesting:
https://www.aivc.org/sites/default/file ... _11702.pdf

EDIT: Also looks like there is 10.5" between the ceiling of the garage and the floor of the next floor. I am currently trying to model the rest of the house(s) in SketchUp.

Also this post https://soundproofcentral.com/soundproo ... ed-houses/ seems to suggest there is no air gaps generally between semi-detached houses... though in the case of the garage its hard to say, short of drilling a hole and trying to figure it out that way, or try and find the plans. I did already try that but have come up short so far.



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#18

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Jul-26, 09:16

Actually, since it is probably important, I will drill a hole into the wall and see if there's an air gap... Hopefully if I shine a light I should be able to tell fairly easily. And if there is air or insulation the drill will suddenly have little or no resistance aftter 100mm. I can then just fill the hole with something, nobody will know :lol:



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#19

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Aug-02, 15:34

Right! I finally have some feedback on this.

After doing some measurements, it looks like it never really exceeds 65 or maybe 67dB next door. In the garage with me I am hitting 115, perhaps even 118 at one point - and I was going for it.

Loudest was in his utility room (directly next to where I am in my garage, but in his garage).

We are going to test again tomorrow when his wife is home. She has musical training so will be able to be more specific about what can be heard, etc. I have measurement graphs too which I will post a little later. As anticipated, peak is in the bass area - but the graph doesn't fall off as much as I thought it would. I think these houses are built quite well in terms of sound isolation. They are built in 2005 so they might fall under new laws about reasonable sound isolation.

Either way - it looks fairly promising.

Outside was a different story, but that was only a garage door in the way. At the end of my drive it was around 80dB.

I will be measuring more tomorrow. But on the face of it, how do-able does it sound to be more or less silent for next door? Looks like I may only need to reduce 30dB for them? Though I will try and reduce as much as possible to be on the safe side.

Also, my housemate said the loudest in our house was just above the garage wall on the inside of the house... so I'm guessing it is flanking. She said you could feel it (kick and snare).



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gullfo
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Drum room in garage

#20

Postby gullfo » Wed, 2023-Aug-02, 17:14

also - consider a decoupled drum platform (and instrument amps) as a means of reducing levels through the structure (which even if not connected can rebroadcast). a friend in DE had his daughters drum room w/ window 1m from the neighbors (basement in both) and with a window plug and the isolation base for the kick, the neighbor said they never heard it. subjective, but happy neighbors, or undisturbed neighbors = good enough. :-)



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#21

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Aug-02, 17:26

Hi Glen,
The garage has a concrete floor, do you think it will flank to the walls? From what I've read (on this forum I think) I shouldn't need to put anything on a concrete floor?

Also it is purely for drums, no amps, far too small for a whole band. It is just for me to practise :D

The idea is to use one end of the garage (which is inside the house).. And build a small room as an inner leaf to the garage.. then air gap to the main garage walls, and build a second leaf to divide the garage. I posted a sketchup a few posts back with a rough idea. I've since changed to 6" studs all round, and extra 2" air gap to ceiling (weakest link in the chain I reckon) so 10" in total. 8" to other walls.

I did wonder about using decoupling clips, but decoupling twice is worse? I also considered staggered stud walls and plasterboard on both sides so it becomes a self contained "pod" inside the garage, but that might be 3 leaf-ish without a big enough air gap to the 3 walls / ceiling.

https://app.sketchup.com/share/tc/europ ... source=web

I think my main worry will be the 68dB @ 40hz I saw on the trace. If I can get that down by about 20dB that'll be good. So far I'm thinking OSB 18mm + 15mm PB + GG + 15mm PB. So 3 layers, about 1.88" worth of mass - then 8" air gap with fluffy insulation, then existing outer walls / ceiling (and 1 new outer leaf wall to split garage as per diagram). Unfortunately I cannot change anything about the existing structure. I can just add mass..

This is the PB (drywall) I'm looking at:

https://constructionproductsexpress.co. ... uct/43893/

Which is 13.2kg/m2 (@ 5/8" thick)... so 40kg per board!



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gullfo
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Drum room in garage

#22

Postby gullfo » Wed, 2023-Aug-02, 19:02

earth damped concrete will conduct sound. if you build 2 rooms on a single earth damped slab, and say the walls provide 80db of isolation, the conduction through the floor will still limit you to around 50db or so (you'll hear it because the rest of the structure is creating a quiet space). so knowing that, you can use that information to guide how much isolation is truly achievable in a general purpose residential structure. and the corresponding investments to achieve highest levels of isolation. its one of those things where you can invest 80% and get 95% of the maximum isolation you can achieve. then spend another 2000% on getting that last 5%... unless you make a significant commitment upfront - separation of slabs, floating rooms, etc.

the pb you're looking at (at least in my calculations) is lighter than normal type-x drywall which is 3.36kg/m2 versus 2.88kg/m2... so maybe sticking with normal type-x is good?

if this is essentially an isolation booth - why not float it? 100mm floor on Kinetics RIM or equiv. make an inverted floor - ply on the bottom, frame on top - pour in concrete. or sand. cover with ply. build walls and ceiling. add air exchange.



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#23

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Aug-02, 19:08

Hi Glen,
I can't pour concrete or anything like that. It's a rented property, and basically I have to put it back how I found it when I eventually move out :( Best I can do is put down a large rubber mat or something.

I don't understand re the PB - it says in the spec it is 13.2kg/m2. It weighs 40kg for 1 2400x1200x15 board. I've not found any other PB heavier. I think we have our wires crossed somewhere!



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#24

Postby alienmuppet » Thu, 2023-Aug-03, 09:47

How does this look for one of the doors?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275974026988 ... _cvip=true
Am I better off looking for an FD60?



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gullfo
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Drum room in garage

#25

Postby gullfo » Mon, 2023-Aug-07, 15:47

Sorry I thought the panel weighed 13.2kg



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#26

Postby alienmuppet » Fri, 2023-Aug-11, 16:32

Are you out there Stuart? :lol: :shot:



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#27

Postby alienmuppet » Sun, 2023-Aug-20, 23:56

It is likely I’ll just go ahead with my current design and hope for the best.




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