New Studio Build Underway

#46

That's why the HVAC goes in BEFORE the ceiling is done... Nobody walks on that ceiling, ever, so it has no additional live load: only dead load.

Well that makes sense! However the OSB first layer of sheathing has already been nailed down. So after the roof is constructed, I will bring the second and final layers (5/8 drywall) through the large access door over the kitchenette.

If he thinks that the HVAC guy needs a surface to stand on for installation and maintenance, then you could put some plywood sheets up there, on top of the drywall, in the area around where the plenums will be, but the area where the AHU, dampers, intake vent and exhaust vent will be does not have any middle-leaf ceiling below it:

Good idea. Thanks. That should solve it.

As I implied above, floor joists must carry live loads, ceiling joists do not.

Got it. I will relay this to him and see what he says. but at this point it is mute since the way oversized joists are in.

He's also not reading the plans correctly! either that or the plans he has are not taken from the ones I did for you

It is the latter. I hired you to design the HVAC only. I did share your sketch-up design with the draftswoman and GC, but those details were not included in the approved plans. Plus you didn't give dimensions for joists and you had inside-out walls which was not in my plan and some other details that you were going to clean up but never did due to saving time and just being busy and it wasn't what I was paying you for. I totally appreciated having those details and if I were to do it again, I would have paid you to design the whole studio with every detail spelled out. The other thing is the GC is not doing the HVAC. I have hired a HVAC company to do that. That company has all your sketch-up jpgs and they will follow your plan EXACTLY, which I am going to emphasize LOUDLY! Of course everything needs to be timed correctly. That said, the GC did screw up the timing. Instead of doing 24"OC and then constructing the roof, and then bringing in the HVAC, he did 16"OC, then put the first layer of OSB on top of the joists, and now the roof. Because it is winter and it's raining, they wanted to get the roof up but for some reason did the OSB first I believe so they could stand on it while constructing the roof?

, on the design I did originally, those are 2x10 joists, not 2x8! I'm not sure where he got the idea they are 2x8. Both the middle-leaf joists and also the inner-leaf sistered joists are all 2x10. There's no 2x8s in there. The rafters and rim joists are 2x8, yes, but the joists are all 2x10.

As stated above he wasn't referencing your plan. The draftsperson/designer also did not indicate the size or span of the joists on the approved plans. The 2x8 roof rafters were on the approved plan and in my email communications with her she mentioned sistered 2x8s for areas where we were hanging HVAC only. All I know is the former builder came to me saying 2x8s weren't going to cover the span. I'm not clear why or where he got the idea that the plan called for 2x8 joists. Agreed sistered 2x10s would be more than adequate.

In fact, those distances COULD be spanned using 2x8s at 16"OC (barely), but I opted for 2x10 24"OC for several reasons (including an extra safety margin and also improved isolation at low frequencies)

This may explain it. Early in the planning process the question to go 16"OC or 24"OC was raised. The GC said he didn't like 24"OC for structural reasons. That early comment stuck with the designer and I think she assumed everything would be 16"OC. On the plans 16"OC is indicated for the walls but again nothing specified for the ceilings.

The only harm here is a possible slight reduction in isolation for very low frequencies, due to going 16" OC instead of 24" OC. If you are concerned about that, then you could add more mass to the deck on that middle-leaf, by increasing the thickness of the plywood deck to 3/4", and/or switching to OSB, instead of plywood.

Another option would be to use Green Glue between the two layers:

Well the first layer is 3/4 OSB, not plywood, and it is already installed. Green glue will be put between layers and it has been purchased and will be delivered on Monday. The second and final layer calls for 5/8 drywall. Is that enough to compensate for the isolation loss? What if I exchanged the 5/8 drywall with 5/8 MDF? Would that be better? 5/8 MDF is only $3 more per sheet than 5/8 drywall. It would also solve the standing on issue when putting in the HVAC. What do you think?

Another question is what order regarding the HVAC installation makes the most sense? After the roof is constructed, should we bring in the HVAC and then add the green glue and second layer of mass (drywall or mdf) to the second leaf or reverse that order and put the second layer on and then the HVAC?

I have another decision to make. The former builder's plan was to use the 2x12s for the inner ceiling joists. I KNOW WAY OVERKILL! AND IT LOWERS MY CEILING BY 2.5 INCHES! He brought up the 2x8 span concerns as the reason, same as the middle leaf and I stupidly signed off on it. So he purchased enough to cover the inner leaf and they can't be returned. So I can either use them or I can insist on the sistered 2x10s, but in that case I would have to pay for the 2x12s. [note: they will be at 24"OC]. The ceiling will be inside out. What do you recommend? The GC said he is fine either way but he has no use for the 2x12s if I don't use them.

Don't forget to take your camera, and take plenty of photos to document everything that is happening! And post a few of the best ones here...

Of course. Stuart thank you so much again for guiding me through this. Your help has been indispensable.

#47

Hi all. Sorry I haven't given any updates or photos lately. I am back at work and I am up for a salary boost, which is a long process of documenting all my accomplishments the past 16 years. Life as an adjunct professor. I can say the building is moving forward. Roof done. Outside sheathing done. HVAC coming soon. Getting pressured for doors and windows to be on site so they can install them and finish the exterior with tyvek and siding. The General Contractor is still trying to get more money from me but no time now for that.

Quick question. Anyone have a plan for making doors without a solid wood slab for the central core? New slabs are $1,500 locally which is too much. If I can't find used ones, then I need to have a plan asap for building doors from scratch.

Thanks!

#48

Over here they’re called door blanks, fire door ones...FD60 are around £100 I believe and are solid wood throughout with ply faces, they come oversizes and you cut them however you need...
Congratulations on the salary boost!

#49

New slabs are $1,500 locally which is too much.

Wow! That's STEEP! As in unreasonably steep. As in way-off-the-charts steep! That's about 4 to 8 times what it should cost! :shock:

Whoever is trying to sell you that, is a very, very questionable supplier. There's no way a simple door blank can cost that much... unless it is some type of very exotic wood, maybe. Like Tom said: a door blank should cost you maybe US$ 200 to 400, or so.

I found this on Home Depot's website, for example: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Masonite-36 ... /205518044 It is showing the price as US$ 368. That's for a "barn door" style door, which is hung from above, but if it is true solid core then it should be good for hanging from the side with hinges.

They also show this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Masonite-36 ... /202768993 for around US$ 200. It has some decorative molding, which you might be able to either remove or fill, in get a flat surface for the extra layers to go on.

And this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Masonite-32 ... /202505910 do around US$ 250 Which would be ideal as you could put one layer of MDF of the right thickness to fill in the central "bay" between the stiles, then another layer on top of that. But the largest width they have in that type of door is 32", and you'll probably want something wider than that. 36" is a good size door for a studio.

So, if you look around at other local building suppliers, you should be able to find something similar for a much more reasonable price than US$ 1500!

Let me know what size door blank you find, and I'll send you the plans for building it up into the complete door that you need. I assume that you want windows in your doors?

Also, take a look at this thread, to see how to actually build your doors: site built door for high isolation

- Stuart -

#50

Wow! That's STEEP! As in unreasonably steep. As in way-off-the-charts steep! That's about 4 to 8 times what it should cost! Whoever is trying to sell you that, is a very, very questionable supplier.

Well that is for solid 100% wood fir slab doors. Three places quoted that much. The doors you linked to are not 100% solid wood slabs. I can get solid core slabs here for less than $200 but the concern was whether the extra long screws would hold once the extra weight of panels were added.

The university where I work is remodeling our library and they are getting rid of many 1.75 inch thick solid core doors for free! But these doors are not solid wood. But they are probably similar to the masonite door you linked to. I am checking them out on Monday. My plan prior to hearing from you was to use 5 or 6 hinges with 3/4 to an inch or so of OSB screwed to it with green glue in-between.

Let me know what size door blank you find, and I'll send you the plans for building it up into the complete door that you need. I assume that you want windows in your doors?

I will PM you about this. Thanks!

#51

Well it has been a while since I last posted. The building has continued and so has some battles with the contractor. I will summarize and then post some pictures.

Just prior to adding the second layer of 3/4 OSB on the exterior leaf, I shared Stuart's method of nailing a half schedule of size 8 nails on first layer and a full schedule of 16s on second layer. I also shared the green glue application instructions. Soon after he wanted to charge me $4,250 because these procedures would take much longer than what he bid for. (I questioned why he didn't allot more time for this when he bid it. Basically, he thought this was a slam dunk quick job and he didn't factor in enough that this is a music studio, not your ordinary building). Regarding the nailing, he said he would waive the fee if he could use 8s on both layers. He also wasn't comfortable building my window or doors due to liability concerns and he said that I was responsible for bringing utilities to the building, siting a statement in the contract that the bid did not cover anything outside the building envelope. I told him I wanted some time to think about all this, not agreeing to pay anything right away.

Well weeks went by before we talked again. During this time the builder, on his own accord, did the exact nailing schedule Stuart had suggested. When I mentioned to him that the GC thought he could use 8s on both layers, he scoffed at that idea, stating the obvious that the wall is 1.5 inches thick and 8s wouldn't cut it. The roof was built, the drywall was installed on top of the OSB in the attic, shingles were added to the roof, the front porch was constructed, the kitchenette windows and door were added and framed, three sides received siding, the attic door was framed, the silencer boxes were constructed, delivered, and hung. We modified the silencer box sleeves due to the 2x12 joists that were used prior to hanging. The HVAC ducted mini split and ducts were hung. We are going to test it next week after it is completed.

When we finally talked, the GC didn't mention the nailing. However, the green glue was an issue. He wanted me to pay for 2/3s of the bill. When I said that he should pay it since it was on the approved plans, he got really emotional. He said he hated this job and he was tired of me fighting him on these charges. It was a tense conversation. In the end, we agreed to split the cost of the green glue. I agreed to pay for the utility connections from my house to the studio. We agreed that he would credit me for the doors and we would do T&M for the my custom doors to be built. I ordered two laminated 5/8ths thick windows from soundproof windows, inc. that are due to arrive this week.

Connecting utilities and paying for a small pump for the toilet to get to my septic tank is going to be expensive. Electric alone will probably be around $4,000 because I need a sub panel installed at my house and it's about 110 feet of trenching needs to be dug. My plan of insulating my inner leaf walls and ceiling with Safe n sound would cost $5,400, of which I would have to pay $3,600 since the approved plans only listed sound installation for the 2x4 portion of the inner leaf. These expenses are pushing it for me. So I have decided to use regular fiberglass insulation for the 6.25 inches of the 10" wall and 3" of safe n sound as the approved plan dictates. This should be covered by the GC, but based off my experience with him I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to get me to pay for some of it.

So that's where I am at. The following pictures are a bit out of order. I placed inline in the order I wanted, but it did its own thing. Anyhow you will get a good grasp of what's been done.

Take care,

Howie

: Roof Rafters

: Roofing added

: Roof Shingles added

: Tyvek Added

: Tyvek Front

: Siding North/West Sides

: Siding Front East View. Almost done.

]

: 3 Boxes Hung

]]]]]

: Inner leaf framing

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#52

Sorry to hear about the hassles with the GC, howie. Your photos cheered me up, though, they show some great work and good progress.

#53

Yea great progress! I feel for you and the GC! These studio builds are something else!

The GC really should have done his homework. A lesson learned. Keep positive! As I slowly (or not so slowly) run out of time and money I keep reminding myself that we can still make music wherever we are. When the studio is done we meed to be in the right frame of mind to use it. Keep it cool ; )

#54

Thanks Purely and Starlight. I am a pretty positive person, but as the costs increase I start second guessing myself.

#55

Is 8.5 inches of insulation too much for an 8 inch wall? I know we don't want to compact it. My choices are either 6.5 inches or 8.5 of insulation.

#56

You will be fine with 8.5" as a little compression won't hurt; in fact, it may help the insulation not to settle (slip down a fraction) over time. I cannot remember the limit off the top of my head but I think it is around 20% compression before the compressed insulation starts to connect the two walls, creating a flanking path.

#57

20% is what I thought too. Thanks Starlight.

#58

For what it's worth, and this isn't really related to flanking but still has to do with compression, I recently found some testing of what happens to the actual absorption properties of insulation under compression, that I thought were rather interesting. Not directly related to the thread, but still useful information to have:

: effect-of-compression-on-porous-absorption.jpg (34.22 KiB) Viewed 36821 times

: effect-of-compression-on-porous-absorption.jpg (34.22 KiB) Viewed 36821 times

: effect-of-compression-on-porous-absorption--Rockwool-R24-30%-compression.jpg (30.01 KiB) Viewed 36821 times

: effect-of-compression-on-porous-absorption--Rockwool-R24-30%-compression.jpg (30.01 KiB) Viewed 36821 times

You don't normally think about things like this, but the effects of compression are very real...

- Stuart -

#59

Hi Folks. Well it was a frustrating day. My builder unpacked my two 5/8 laminated windows from soundproof windows.com and discovered that neither of them had weep holes in the tracks. He called the company and they said they only make interior windows and cautioned him not to put one in the exterior because they could leak and rust. They cost me $3,000 and they don't take returns. I am 99% sure I asked if their windows were ok for both exterior and interior walls but I have no documentation because we did the deal over the phone at the end of January.

Their proposed solution is to add a regular vinyl window in my exterior 2x6 frame, facing the outside world, followed by the two laminated windows, one sharing the 2x6 frame and the other in the 2x4 frame. My builder said there would be just over six inches between the two laminated windows. Of course that means a triple leaf window. How much isolation will I lose by employing this method?

I am going to call customer service tomorrow and see what my options are. It may be possible that they could send a different track/frame for one of the windows. The salesman mentioned that I may be able to use a window sealing tape. What do you think I should do?

Thank you,

Howie

#60

That sucks, Howie! Any reputable supplier should be prepared to replace defective or incorrect merchandise.

But there's another question here: you mentioned that: "neither of them had weep holes in the tracks.". Why do they have tracks at all? Studio windows should be fixed, not operable. There should be no "tracks" on them. If the window is operable, then it won't provide as much isolation as a fixed, sealed unit, and over time the isolation will slowly degrade due to it being opened and closed. OR maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "tracks"?

Their proposed solution is to add a regular vinyl window in my exterior 2x6 frame, facing the outside world, followed by the two laminated windows, one sharing the 2x6 frame and the other in the 2x4 frame. My builder said there would be just over six inches between the two laminated windows. Of course that means a triple leaf window. How much isolation will I lose by employing this method?

Find out how thick the vinyl panel is, and how far away it will be from the actual laminated unit (gap from pane to pane), and I can figure out what the difference will be. It might be OK to do that, if the mass is low enough and the distance is reasonably good.

Another option might be to just keep the glass, which is by far the most expensive part of the window, scrap their frame and build your own wood frame, in the way I showed in this thread: site built windows for high isolation

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 - Studio Design Forum