New Studio Build Underway

#61

Why do they have tracks at all? Studio windows should be fixed, not operable. There should be no "tracks" on them. If the window is operable, then it won't provide as much isolation as a fixed, sealed unit, and over time the isolation will slowly degrade due to it being opened and closed.

They are sliding operable windows. The salesperson said that there was no difference between operable and fixed in the tests they had done regarding isolation. He said the results were the same, so I went with operable thinking having the option of fresh air might be nice at times.

I doubt they will take them back since they are custom built. I didn't phone the company yet, but maybe it's worth a call. Maybe I get lucky and they will take them back. Or maybe they have another solution.

Find out how thick the vinyl panel is, and how far away it will be from the actual laminated unit (gap from pane to pane), and I can figure out what the difference will be. It might be OK to do that, if the mass is low enough and the distance is reasonably good.

Thanks Stuart. I will let you know. If it ends up being ok, that would be great! I could not open them except for cleaning or maintenance.

Another option might be to just keep the glass, which is by far the most expensive part of the window, scrap their frame and build your own wood frame, in the way I showed in this thread: site built windows for high isolation

There are four half-sized panes because it is a slider. So that won't work. I bought these windows because the GC wasn't comfortable having his employee build them for me. Someone else could but that is going to delay things.

I will tackle this more on Monday. Another idea is to install them like I originally planned, slope the window ledge and drill a small seep hole in the frame used on the exterior if that is necessary. Then install a window awning to give it some rain protection, and then only open it for cleaning or maintenance. Any thoughts on that idea?

Howie

#62

howiedrum wrote:Source of the postThe salesperson said that there was no difference between operable and fixed in the tests they had done regarding isolation. He said the results were the same, so I went with operable thinking having the option of fresh air might be nice at times.

Howie, it is likely that the window company has not had their products tested for isolation for musical purposes, ie. down to 14Hz, but rather just for general use, ie. STL, as that is the usual test and will give better looking results for salespeople to quote. I fear the salesperson said there was no difference out of ignorance but maybe he can show you (and us) the test data so that we can see the isolation down to 3 octaves below 125Hz. Stuart has a mythbuster topic about STL, here. It is worth being familiar with the topic and the requirements for a music studio.

Regarding opening a window to get fresh air, that is a topic I don't have time to comment on right now but in a build such as you are doing I would suggest learning what is normal for studios and then adjust according to your budget, but simply a window and a door are not really adequate.

#63

Here is the link to their website. https://www.soundproofwindows.com/recording-studio-windows/

I know all about STL's not being a reliable number. And while they rate their windows using STL, they talk about their "incredible" low frequency noise reduction. I think their windows, including the operable ones, are fine for interior purposes although Stuart's comment regarding operable losing some reduction over time makes sense. Hopefully the solutions of adding an exterior vinyl window will suffice, or just using them as I originally planned with some adaptions will work. If the operable part creates a big problem, then I will have to try to sell them I guess. I will ask for the test results so stay tuned for that.

#64

howiedrum wrote:Source of the post I will ask for the test results so stay tuned for that.

That would be great. Hopefully, they have actual TL data, and not just STC data. And hopefully it was measured in a reputable lab.

And as Starlight mentioned: that salesman is just not very well informed if he told you that operable windows isolate for studios as well as fixed ones do. He works for a company that sells acoustic isolation products, so ignorance isn't a very good excuse! There's abundant data that shows his claim to not be true:

: glass-lost-isolation-due-to-operable-window-2.jpg (52.21 KiB) Viewed 38707 times

: glass-lost-isolation-due-to-operable-window-2.jpg (52.21 KiB) Viewed 38707 times

It's a real thing, and well documented. Operable windows don't perform as well as sealed, fixed units do, because something has to move, so it isn't completely sealed, and there's also less mass in the moving part (tracks, rollers, wheels, rails, etc.) than there is in the framing for a fully fixed, sealed unit. There have to be gaps and openings around the slider, just so that it can slide. And putting rubber over those gaps is not the same as having a fully sealed unit. It isn't possible to get the same mass from a rubber seal just a few mm thick, as you get from an inch of solid laminated glass!

They should know about this. So, unless maybe they have invented some new type of mechanism that completely seals the slider in place, with the full mass and hermetic seal of a non-operable unit, exactly the same as if it was fixed glass and frame, I find their claim just a bit hard to swallow.

I do hope they send you some good data that proves me wrong!

- Stuart -

#65

that salesman is just not very well informed if he told you that operable windows isolate for studios as well as fixed ones do.

He didn't make a general statement but he said the company's windows tested the same. I have to believe they are only talking about STC data. When I mentioned that his solution of adding a vinyl window would create a three-leaf system, he didn't know what that meant. I had to explain it to him. So I too would be very surprised if they tested for TL loss at low frequencies.

Find out how thick the vinyl panel is, and how far away it will be from the actual laminated unit (gap from pane to pane), and I can figure out what the difference will be. It might be OK to do that, if the mass is low enough and the distance is reasonably good.

I won't be able to talk with my builder about exact measurements until Monday, but I found out that the vinyl window frame has a 2 5/8" depth. The combined double pane window glass would be 11/16" thick. The total gap of my window opening is 10 inches. The builder said the distance from inner laminated panes to the middle laminated panes would be 6 1/4 inches. Not sure if this gives you enough information. Also I wasn't clear if I did add an exterior vinyl window if it should be a picture window or another slider. I assume a picture window would be better.

How much low frequency isolation will I lose using the sliders as is? It looked like 2-3 db from the charts you posted.

Is there anything I can do to the 5/8 laminated slider frames that would increase its isolation? Could it be sealed with caulk or something to make them inoperable and sealed, thus bring them closer to a fixed window?

I am trying to think of any and all solutions. I could discard the frames and put two panes, one in each of my communicating front doors. I could have the current window openings reframed to fit these smaller panes. I could cut out an altogether new opening and have two windows at these smaller dimensions. Of course all of this will cost me more labor and time. I figure somewhere around $2000 more labor to do any of these options.

#66

Here is their test results.

The windows I ordered were a pair of operable SPW650s and they would be in a 10" space. Here are the comparison numbers for 80-5000hz. The operable seems to perform better except at 250hz. That seems counter intuitive. Am I reading this wrong?

Fixed:
60 49 33 37 44 47 49 54 55 58 60 61 56 60 57 65 63 63 63 62 60 58
Operable:
63 52 36 41 44 49 50 53 56 58 61 62 62 62 63 67 67 70 71 71 71 71

#67

Well they certainly seem a better choice by the table there but I suppose there isn’t data below 80hz...

#68

I doubt it. Even Stuart's tables don't go below 80. They claim they make the only sliders with that kind of isolation.

#69

Interesting... sorry if you’ve mentioned it but did they say how they managed to make sliders differently to other manufacturers, or did they not go into detail? Sorry to hear you’re having more drama.

#70

did they say how they managed to make sliders differently to other manufacturers, or did they not go into detail?

The salesperson couldn't tell me. Online the owner of the company said they use spring-loaded seals in their windows. Not sure if that is the reason for the high isolation from the sliders.

#71

Electrical question: Electrician said code allows for Romex to be used in walls. Any issues with bypassing conduit and just going with Romex? Stuart suggests using conduit with rubber in-between. Any way of using Romex with rubber and no conduit?

I tried to upload a jpg of Stuart's sketch of running conduit for surface mounted outlets, but I keep getting a yellow triangle in status and a message that it could not upload my attachment. The bar fills with green and then the yellow triangle appears.

#72

I had the same problem trying to upload images so I hosted them elsewhere and linked to them. Someone else, possibly endorka, also mentioned the same thing happened.

#73

Yep I've had trouble with images too!

I'm not sure I understand fully the electrical question... Are you running cables behind the wall boards and then using sealant where the cable comes through and using a surface box, or are you using a board box which leaves a flush socket? Or are you using surface conduit for surface back boxes?

#74

howiedrum wrote:Source of the post Any issues with bypassing conduit and just going with Romex? Stuart suggests using conduit with rubber in-between. Any way of using Romex with rubber and no conduit?

You can do it that way, but you lock yourself in for future needs. The reason why I always recommend conduit for studios, is maintenance and flexibility. Conduit allows you to simply pull new wiring through if you need it for some reason, or pull old wiring out and replace it in the event of damage or whatever. You can't do that with Romex: Instead, you'd have to rip open your walls to add new stuff, or fixed failed stuff. Houses, offices, shops, etc. don't normally need rewiring, but studios often do as needs change. So my recommendation is always conduit: It takes a little longer to do, yes, and it costs a little more in materials and labor, yes, but in my experience, that is all offset if you ever need to add or replace just one cable. With conduit, you can do it in a few minutes with no downtime at all for the studio: with fixed wiring (eg Romex) you are probably in for a few days of outage, and some major "wall surgery". Perhaps for a home studio it might be overkill, but for a pro studio where things can change, my suggestion is always conduit.

but I keep getting a yellow triangle in status and a message that it could not upload my attachment. The bar fills with green and then the yellow triangle appears.

Please could you try that again? That might have been due to some stuff I was doing on the server over a few days, to upgrade a few things behind the scenes: I'm still dealing with a spammer attack, so I'm constantly doing stuff to fight that. Perhaps that was the reason for the image upload issue. Let me know if you still have trouble, and I'll look into it.

- Stuart -

#75

Hi Everyone,

Well we live in interesting times. I hope everyone is staying healthy wherever you live.

Miraculously my studio build has continued even though we have had a shelter-in-place order for many weeks now and the GC pulled his guys from my job four weeks ago because he said he needed to make some money on other projects to help pay for my studio.

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: image.png (333 Bytes) Viewed 38359 times

The build was idle for a couple of weeks, but over the last two weeks the plumbing contractor dug a ditch and laid my sewer and water lines and roughed in all the plumbing and propane gas lines in the kitchenette and bathroom space. It wasn't cheap, but I feel lucky I was able to find someone considering the current state of affairs.

Today the electrician finished the rough in for the entire building! So I am ready for the builder and his helper to finish the inner leaf ceiling, install insulation, add interior sheathing, window, and flooring. Hopefully that will begin on Monday.

I do have a question about the placement of insulation. Currently, faced R-19 fiberglass insulation has been place in the upper regions of the 2x6 outer leaf wall cavities with the face facing in toward the inner leaf. The plan was to continue filling the 2x6 cavities with the faced R-19 and then fill the inner leaf 2x4 wall cavities with sound installation (safe n sound mineral wool), which is unfaced.

My question is if I do this, then the vapor barrier (faced side of R-19) ends up in the middle of the whole wall assembly, which I have read is not good. Typically, I learned that vapor barriers or retarders should be placed inside the cavity up against the surface that is warmest in winter. For me that would be up against the inner leaf OSB/Drywall sheathing. So, should I pull any R-19 currently installed out and place the Safe n sound in its place and then put the R-19 in? This would bring the face/vapor barrier in its proper place up against the inner leaf sheathing. Luckily most of the walls are uninsulated at present, so no time lost.

Also, I read that OSB also acts as a vapor retarder when used as interior sheathing. So if I keep the wall as is, would I have two vapor retarders inside the wall? The faced R-19 in the middle and the OSB on the inner leaf?

I look forward to hearing your opinion.

One more thing. I am sure some of you are thinking why I am doing both fiberglass and mineral wool in the same wall. The reason is money. The contractor wouldn't pay for the whole cavity to be rock wool, only the 2x4 cavities because that is how the plans were drafted. I was going to pay the extra cost but my budget shrunk so I chose this method to save costs.

Soundman2020 - Studio Design Forum