New Home Studio Build

#31

Covid-19 and storm Isaias are probably not helping.

We just got our power back after 2 1/2 days. Ugh.

#32

Hello to all.

It has been 2 years since I've been active here at Soundman 2020 Studio Design Forum. I was blessed to have this invaluable forum for advice and information from you all. I wasn't able to accomplish much thru the Covid Pandemic because I was out of work and short of funds. To top it off cost of construction materials went up dramatically along with availability. Luckily things changed and I've been working hard for a few months on it trying to finally finish my studio build. Enclosed is some updated pics of the rooms. I'm now planning the acoustical treatment phase and welcome your knowledge on the best way to go about it. I've studied the forum and internet and have someone offering help but wanted to hear from you as well. There seems to be varied opinions as there is no one way to do things. I'm looking for advice on how to implement bass trapping, broadband absorption and diffusion. I'm concentrating on the live/tracking room first. My thoughts were to build out a nice bass trap sophet over the glass window where I highlighted the photo with yellow marker. This seems to be a great space thats out of the way and I could go very deep with regular fluffy insulation easily 24" or more if necessary as well as spreading out some broadband absorbers on all walls & ceilings.

I've made some broadband absorption panels with rigid fiberglass insulation. They are 2 pieces of 2" thick for a total of 4" framed out with wood and fabric. There is no back on them and they are on wheels so they can be placed against walls or rolled out for Gobos or removed from the room. I feel this offers the most options. My live/tracking room will record drums, electric guitar amps, acoustic instruments and everything else you can think of. I enjoy working & playing a lot of different styles of music. I have made (4) 4' x 7' panels and (4) 3' x 7' panels. I have materials to make more. I also have (8) 3' x 5' panels of the same construction not on wheels. Please offer any thoughts or plans that could help me make this a great room.

Thank you for your time & Expertise,

Jason Newcomb

#33

#34

Starlight wrote:Source of the post Stuart Jason, how are you doing? Has there been any progress with your studio? Covid-19 and storm Isaias are probably not helping.

Hi Starlight! Its been a long time. I just got back on here earlier today and did an update post. You helped me greatly a feww years back but my build got held up due to Covid. I've been finishing it up lately. If you have the time to read my latest post it would be greatly appreciated.

Jason Newcomb

#35

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post Jason, do you have a SketchUp model of your studio? That would make it easier to figure out the issue, and how to solve it.

First, I want to make sure I'm see things the right way: SoulShaker-room-question-1.jpg Is that correct? The LR is over on the right of that photo, beyond the wall, the CR is on the left, the pink insulation and framing visible in the middle is the inner-leaf of the LR wall, and the other wall (closer to the camera, drywall and framing only, no insulation, built inside-out) is the outer leaf of the building itself?

If that's correct, then my next question is: Why is that outer-wall there? Is that a structural (load-bearing) wall that cannot be moved? From the photo, it doesn't seem to be structural. Or at least, there's no framing visible that points to it being load-bearing. So, if it is not load bearing, then wouldn't it just be easier to remove it? That way, your CR could be built in the normal way, and you'd only have two leaves.

Now, if that really is structural and cannot be removed, then probably the best thing to do would be to ignore it: pretend it's not there, and just build your CR in the normal way.

However, the other photo that also has me a bit confused: IMG_3523.jpg If all of that is your outer leaf, and you now want to build your CR within that shell, then all of that drywall on the ceiling and other walls should probably not be there! You should just have bare framing there. Because on the other side of that drywall there is framing (I assume), and on the other side of that framing you must have the outer sheathing of the building and the sub-floor for the room above, so the drywall visible in this photo is going to create a three-leaf system in those directions too, it would seem. Is this because you have no choice but to do three-leaf up there? IS it because you have a ventilated roof up there? The CR is your existing garage, right?

I'm still trying to understand what you are dealing with, so I can suggest how to proceed, so please confirm the above...

- Stuart -

Hi Stuart,

Its been a long time. I just got back on here earlier today and did an update post. You helped me greatly a few years back but my build got held up due to Covid. I've been finishing it up lately. If you have the time to read my latest post it would be greatly appreciated.

Jason Newcomb

#36

Nice one!

What defines quality in live rooms is far more subjective than control rooms. It may vary from genre to genre, ensemble to ensemble, session to session, and perhaps even song to song, so it's difficult to offer specific advice.

With that in mind, with my limited experience...

Your approach with the movable panels / gobos is therefore a good idea, and tried and tested. If you have enough of those you can make up little "roomlets" in the larger room to control the sound in different parts, at least to some extent. I'd recommend putting a hard back on those gobos though, otherwise their sound isolation properties will be insignificant. 18mm plywood or MDF on one side would work well, so you'll end up with a hard reflective side and a soft absorbant side. The reflective sides can be great for recording e.g. acoustic guitars

One of the big nasties in live room acoustics is flutter echos. The sloped ceiling will prevent floor to ceiling flutter echos, so that's a good start. You'll have flutter echos from opposite walls though. A useful approach to that, especially when number of panels is limited, is to arrange them so they are staggered on opposite sides. You don't have to go daft or be precise with this, but try not to have bare wall facing bare wall.

Low frequency resonances are another big nasty of live rooms. Room modes mean that some notes on instruments sound louder than other notes due to room acoustics. Your live room is quite large so that reduces the impact of this substantially. By the time you're above 100Hz the room modes are numerous and fairly well distributed so shouldn't present too much problems. Below 100Hz - bass guitar, kick drum - you might run into trouble as the modes are fewer and on far apart notes. My hunch is that if you are going to require bass trapping, it will be crucial to target this area.

In your shoes I'd do some right proper test sessions in the live room first. Find out where the problems are, what you like, and what you don't. Then solve those to the best of your budget and ability. Your movable gobos will help you try before you buy. French cleats along the walls would allow you to hang as many or few panels are you like, and move them freely.

Cheers,
Jennifer

#37

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you so much for your response. I truly appreciate it. Yes i totally agree with your opinion about the needs of a room changing according to genre, session etc..I not only work with a lot of different styles of artists but as a musician/writer I'm all over the place and don't want to be stuck with one fingerprint. I thought about the Gobos having a reflective back when I was making them but thought having more absorption and leaving them more on the walls than using as normal Gobos made sense but I think your right that I should add plywood and then I could easily spin them around to liven up the room a little and of course they would work better as proper Gobos when I need seperation.

I have had some band rehearsals in the room at various times. When there was no acoustical treatment inside it was obviously too lively but still sounded decent. Very powerful and punchy. No real horrible nastiness. Then I had 6 of the Gobos made and it sounded much better. Didn't lose the impact and cleaned up a lot but still needed more absorption and begging for real bass management. Now I have 8 made and sounds better still. Here is what I was thinking would be a good plan to add to where I'm at:

In the attached image I was thinking of making the top end a dry/dead area. I like having the option for that 70's dry drum sound. I could put a big/deep bass trap on that top wall up high where the black circle is. Then I could put some good diffusion at the other end where the glass looks into control room on walls & ceiling and not much absorption which would be a more live end of the room. Would that diffusion help the drums back at the top end? In the attached pic I was thinking

Black-big bass trap (at least 24" deep)
Pink-2'x4' broadband panels
Yellow-ceiling cloud
Red-Corner traps
Green-4' x 7' Gobos (broadband absorption)

Thanks again for your time & expertise,

Jason Newcomb

#38

Broadly speaking I think your plan will work well but may benefit from some tweaks. If you want to tackle the bass end, this should be done seriously and with appropriate absorption types and depths. There is some information on this page that might be helpful;

https://www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/roc ... r-material

Here are the room modes identified by Amroc. There's no capability for a sloping roof so I put 11 feet as an approximation. Therefore take calculated modes involving the height dimension with a pinch of salt. From https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=27 ... 18&r60=0.2

First mode is length, 21Hz and is below the pitch of most (all?) musical instruments so probably not a concern.

Next is 30Hz, width, and is getting into the musical range. The low B on a 5 string bass guitar is just a little bit higher than this. The second order width mode will be about 59Hz and is definitely in the useful musical range - kick drum fundamental, normal bass guitar. I don't think your current scheme will do much to address this. If you'd like it to, then consider more deep / low density traps where they'll have an effect. Superchunks in the places marked red would help with width a bit, and also length. Make them big and deep though, with low density insulation. Perhaps a couple at the other end of the room as well. If still required after this, go with deeper dedicated traps on the walls you have marked green instead of gobos.

42Hz is the second length mode. Your deep low density trap marked black will address this well. 24" is a minimum, if you could get deeper still it might be worth it.

51Hz is our guess for height, so take with a pinch of salt. Your cloud will address this well if you choose the absorption material wisely.

If you get these ones sorted enough I reckon you'll be close. The rest will be up to taste.

I don't know much about diffusion, sorry

#39

one option - use scattering surfaces placed on strong modal points, can do a lot to address LF. the slots provide some additional broadband absorption. see example photo (a studio i had designed about 9 years ago) where we used the angled slotted panels + corner panels + angled ceiling panels. provides a lively well balanced space.

#40

endorka wrote:Source of the post Broadly speaking I think your plan will work well but may benefit from some tweaks. If you want to tackle the bass end, this should be done seriously and with appropriate absorption types and depths. There is some information on this page that might be helpful;

https://www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/roc ... r-material

Here are the room modes identified by Amroc. There's no capability for a sloping roof so I put 11 feet as an approximation. Therefore take calculated modes involving the height dimension with a pinch of salt. From https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=27 ... 60=0.2room modes.PNG

First mode is length, 21Hz and is below the pitch of most (all?) musical instruments so probably not a concern.

Next is 30Hz, width, and is getting into the musical range. The low B on a 5 string bass guitar is just a little bit higher than this. The second order width mode will be about 59Hz and is definitely in the useful musical range - kick drum fundamental, normal bass guitar. I don't think your current scheme will do much to address this. If you'd like it to, then consider more deep / low density traps where they'll have an effect. Superchunks in the places marked red would help with width a bit, and also length. Make them big and deep though, with low density insulation. Perhaps a couple at the other end of the room as well. If still required after this, go with deeper dedicated traps on the walls you have marked green instead of gobos.

42Hz is the second length mode. Your deep low density trap marked black will address this well. 24" is a minimum, if you could get deeper still it might be worth it.

51Hz is our guess for height, so take with a pinch of salt. Your cloud will address this well if you choose the absorption material wisely.

If you get these ones sorted enough I reckon you'll be close. The rest will be up to taste.

I don't know much about diffusion, sorry

Thanks again. I can go deeper on the main bass trap thats highlighted in Black. It can be 31" Deep which would bring it out flush with the end of the small wall on right near doorway. It can come down 5' from top of ceiling and can span across the whole back wall of room which is 14'. Do you think behind the low density insulation at the very back of black trap that it could benefit from a 2” layer of high density rigid insulation?

On the ceiling cloud you said choose the absorption material wisely. What do you recommend?

#41

Soulshaker Studios wrote:Source of the postThanks again. I can go deeper on the main bass trap thats highlighted in Black. It can be 31" Deep which would bring it out flush with the end of the small wall on right near doorway. It can come down 5' from top of ceiling and can span across the whole back wall of room which is 14'.

Good plan, that's what I'd do.

Do you think behind the low density insulation at the very back of black trap that it could benefit from a 2” layer of high density rigid insulation?

I've seen this recommended but not tried it myself yet, so can't say one way or the other, sorry!

On the ceiling cloud you said choose the absorption material wisely. What do you recommend?

It depends on what you do. I'd consider three options, with the usual caveats about ensuring they are all appropriately rigged, that the ceiling structure can handle the added load, and that having absorption up against the ceiling isn't going to cause damp etc.

First is your standard cloud, suspended from the ceiling. If you use this, make sure it is deep enough to have an effect on the frequencies you'd like to target.

But since the roof gable makes a gentle corner, why not expand it to make a straddle trap? Alternatively you could view it as a drop ceiling. I've done this before and it didn't have as much effect as a straddle trap in a 90 degree corner, but it's not as deep, so we'd expect that.

Taking this further still, how about a superchunk?

The depth and type of insulation of these should be chosen based on the frequencies you'd like to affect. Generally rule of thumb is the lower the frequency, deeper traps with lower density insulation are recommended. This page has recently come to my attention and has some good information; https://www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/rockwool-glasswool-hemp-best-absorber-material

#42

The depth and type of insulation of these should be chosen based on the frequencies you'd like to affect. Generally rule of thumb is the lower the frequency, deeper traps with lower density insulation are recommended. This page has recently come to my attention and has some good information; https://www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/rockwool-glasswool-hemp-best-absorber-material[/quote]

This is a great idea. I never really thought of it this way but a vaulted ceiling really is somewhat the same as a corner. Closing it in behind where I would have put a cloud makes a lot of sense. Its real estate that I cant really use for anything else anyway. My only concern would be over-deadening the room but I guess I can control that by how much and how deep I go.

I'm almost finished my largest/deepest bass trap that I had highlighted black. I studied the charts in your link but I cant definitively conclude what kind/value insulation I should use in it. The chart only goes 12" deep and my trap is 31" deep.
I've been told that low density fluffy insulation is what i should use but still unsure exactly what product/R value would be best. One adviser told me to fully fill with R-13 without compressing. Do you have an opinion on exactly what I should put in it? Also you recommended doing a room analysis. I've been told REW Room EQ Wizard is a good software to use. Is this what you recommend?

Thanks again,

Jason Newcomb

#43

Hey Jason!

I hope you're doing well.

Could you upload some REW measurements before and after that big trap? In order to compare and see what benefits the trap give to you.

Thank you and congratulations for the progress.

Eric

#44

Soulshaker Studios wrote:This is a great idea. I never really thought of it this way but a vaulted ceiling really is somewhat the same as a corner. Closing it in behind where I would have put a cloud makes a lot of sense. Its real estate that I cant really use for anything else anyway. My only concern would be over-deadening the room but I guess I can control that by how much and how deep I go.

In my experience, over deadening is more likely to come from using too many shallow traps to make up for their poor ability to absorb low frequencies. In other words, too much surface area facing into the room with not enough depth sucks out too many high frequencies, and probably not enough ows.

With deeper traps you need less of them to absorb sufficient lows. So less surface area facing into the room, and also less deadening of high frequencies.

I'm almost finished my largest/deepest bass trap that I had highlighted black. I studied the charts in your link but I cant definitively conclude what kind/value insulation I should use in it. The chart only goes 12" deep and my trap is 31" deep.
I've been told that low density fluffy insulation is what i should use but still unsure exactly what product/R value would be best. One adviser told me to fully fill with R-13 without compressing.

Different materials are available in different parts of the world so it's difficult to recommend anything specific. The R value is to do with heat transfer and has nothing to do with acoustics, so it's not relevant here. What is relevant is "gas flow resistivity". In general, the lower the better (up to a point!) for these deep traps. But this number is usually not supplied by the manufacturer. There's a thread on gearslutz where some GFR numbers are colated;
https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/625978-common-gas-flow-resistivity-numbers.html

In general, it is reckoned that the less dense the insulation, the lower the GFR. I've used loft rolls for 24' deep traps. I think R-13 is in the "low density fluffy" category so it seems like a good recommendation.

You might want to use chicken wire along the bottom and sides of the trap to keep the insulation from bulging down and out

Do you have an opinion on exactly what I should put in it? Also you recommended doing a room analysis. I've been told REW Room EQ Wizard is a good software to use. Is this what you recommend?

REW is what I use and it is excellent. Use a calibrated measurement mic if you can. I use a MiniDSP UMIK-1; https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

#45

. [/quote]
Different materials are available in different parts of the world so it's difficult to recommend anything specific. The R value is to do with heat transfer and has nothing to do with acoustics, so it's not relevant here. What is relevant is "gas flow resistivity". In general, the lower the better (up to a point!) for these deep traps. But this number is usually not supplied by the manufacturer. There's a thread on gearslutz where some GFR numbers are colated;
https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/625978-common-gas-flow-resistivity-numbers.html

In general, it is reckoned that the less dense the insulation, the lower the GFR. I've used loft rolls for 24' deep traps. I think R-13 is in the "low density fluffy" category so it seems like a good recommendation.

Using your link I found this chart that looks really good for owens corning product. This is readily available at Home Depot in my hometown Richmond Va USA. What’s your opinion on this?

Received these numbers from Owens Corning regarding
their EcoTouch low density (fluffy) insulation:
R-11 = 2450 mks rayls/m
R-13 = 3500 mks rayls/m
R-15 = 5000 mks rayls/m
R-19 = 2900 mks rayls/m
They also added that 703 is 17324 mks rayls/m
plus/minus 5%

I received the following from technical services at
Thermafiber:
The air flow resistivity of our Ultrabatt (4.0 pcf
density) mineral wool is 15,700 mks Rayls/m.
This is the Owens Corning Thermafiber UltraBatt that is
readily available at Home Depot in the USA. It is not
the same product as Thermafiber Fire and Sound.

You might want to use chicken wire along the bottom and sides of the trap to keep the insulation from bulging down and out

Yes I plan to use chicken wire as much as necessary to prevent any sagging/settling throughout.

?[/quote]REW is what I use and it is excellent. Use a calibrated measurement mic if you can. I use a MiniDSP UMIK-1; https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1[/quote]

I have a DBX calibrated measurement mic. I will download and study REW and clear my room of everything before filling bass trap and get good baseline readings of my room. Then I’ll do another reading after bass trap is complete.

How do you create the highlighted squares around peoples quotes on this forum? I'm having trouble figuring it out so I'm highlighting your quotes in a different font color.

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