Up All Nite Studio - 2022 [Control Room]

[gullfo]

generally you point the omni mic up (vertical)

[RJHollins]

Well ... doing some extra Research, especially from the SonarWorks website, where I got the REF4 software and Microphone with CAL FILE.

They include 2 CAL files ... one for their software [30 degree], and then a TXT file format for 0 degree.

As it turns out, the previous REW file I posted was completely WRONG

So tonite, I re-shot the Room, doing Left and then Right 3 times. And this time with the correct CAL file [using 0 degree].

I'll see if I can DELETE that previous REW file from the thread.

Meantime, I'm in discussion with a GS member that has a procedure for making 'correction IR Filters' using REW's measurements. He stipulates to make 3 separate measurements for each side ... and then use an 'Averaging'.

He has a rather involved Method that goes beyond simple Freq/Amplitude correction. He's posted several Video Tutorials on the procedure He's developed. I'm still in the process of understanding it all.

I know that I still have more physical treatment to do ... once I get a clear understanding of the current issues and then how to approach a solution.

The other part of this ... I was never to happy about the sound I got with SonarWorks. Yes, it did make corrections ... but something of the sound was not comfortable. I only used 8 - 10% correction with it ... and then eventually stopped using it all together.

This FIR solution is said to be much better ... we'll see/hear [i hope].

Anyway ... here is the new REW file. Please, if anyone who understands REW measurements can highlight the major issues ... that would be so welcomed !

Thank-you

2022 Den CntrlRm 80spl [3x]-1.mdat

(11.82 MiB) Downloaded 559 times

2022 Den CntrlRm 80spl [3x]-1.mdat

(11.82 MiB) Downloaded 559 times

[gullfo]

the GS procedure is a good one. when i ask folks to shoot the room, i usually ask for at least 16 but as many as around 30: speaker to mic position. all mics vertical omni, and speakers full range.

overall room response:
1) lower back left to upper front right
2) lower back right to upper front left
3) lower front left to upper back right
4) lower front right to upper back left

critical listening:
the "listening" spot
5) left monitor to ear height middle
6) right monitor to ear height middle
7) both monitor to ear height middle

sussing out width of listening space off-axis
left monitor to ear height mic aligned to left speaker
9) left monitor to ear height mic aligned to right speaker
10) right monitor to ear height mic aligned to left speaker
11) right monitor to ear height mic aligned to right speaker
12) both monitor to ear height mic aligned to left speaker
13) both monitor to ear height mic aligned to right speaker

couch
mic centered on couch ear height
14) left monitor
15) right monitor
16) both monitor

subwoofer (if using one) - placed ~18" off room center line (final placement to be determined)
15) repeat 1-4
16) repeat 5-13
17) repeat 16

this enables "views" of the room from overall, to critical listening (first try), couch, and subwoofer. generally 1 each but a couple per each in the critical listening spot is good as well.

this is done with the untreated room. after the initial shoots, then adjustment by moving speakers and listening positions until the balance is as good as it gets, then adjustments to ensure symmetry at the critical listening position. finally some eq to trim high energy bits slightly (1-2db max). treat first reflections and rear wall. add more as needed to get T60 to <200ms @ critical listening. reflections <= -12db @ >= 20ms. add some (diffractive/diffusive) reflection panels to ensure its not anechoic (you should be able to "sense to room" when its quiet - you have any level of tinnitus "ring" (everyone does at some level) which is apparent, you need more "room")

just saying... you could end up ultimately (outside of the live adjustment process) take a few hundred readings. to put it into perspective, Eric D, told me that for the Galaxy Studios, between the control rooms, master room, and live room, he undertook roughly 15,000 measurements... over the course of 3 years...

[RJHollins]

Just had a look at the Galaxy Studios site. Very impressive.

Just hope I can get my current Room to sound decent.

Last nite was 'Room shooting' time. Beside the REW shots, I also did the SonarWorks Ref4 calibration.

Took a bit of time ... I wore closedback headphones to give a little ear protection from all the test tones.

With the 'correction' loaded into the SW plugin, started listening to some of my Reference tracks.

Was doing lots of A/B comparisons with/without the correction.

I'm not much of a fan of 'perfectly flat' monitor response across the whole spectrum. I personally prefer a general 'house curve' that raises the low-end and lowers the top.

In the SW plugin, there is a TILT eq. I left it at a Tilt of 3dB for the moment [come back later tonite to listen/compare further].

Another issue ... I really dislike use correction at 100%. It just kills all the life out of everything I listen to.

I ended up at about 20%. Again, will listen to that again.

With those settings, there was a pleasant result to the correction ... especially in the areas that were of bother.

During all this, I'm also looking into other 'correction' software. AudioLense, Dirac are a couple I was reading up on.

But also that GS Member's FIR Filter technique is something else I would like to try.

All this is a check point to see how the Rooms is measuring up prior to the install of Clouds and such.

Glenn ... was there anything that caught your attention of issues in the Room ??? or really, if anyone has experience interpreting REW
measurements has a comment or insight ... I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks !

[RJHollins]

Going to do another shoot [hopefully tonite].

The Gentleman on GS suggested to run Monitor Flat ... I had the Midrange with a 2dB cut @ 2k [dsp on back of speaker], and then redo REW.

so we will .....

[RJHollins]

Question Glenn,

Are the ceiling Clouds you placed in the Design Hard-backed ? or Soft?

Thanks

[gullfo]

soft as round 1 of cloud treatment. later we could add the hard back and adjust levels and angles. agree speakers flat or if baffle mounted, then baffle step compensation set.

[RJHollins]

ok ...

Looking through all my left over supplies from the original studio, and being mindful of what I can do [physically/financially]

I have enough KNAF rigid fiberglass to make [3] 2' x 4' x 8" soft clouds.

Already have [2] 2'x4'x2" thin panels [from before], along with [1] 2'x4'x4" panels already complete [all these from the 1st build].

Obviously ... the more treatment, the better ... but

In your current Design, you have [3] 2' x 6' x 8" , and a single 2'x4'x8" panel for the back ceiling.

side note: here at my State, supplies [and prices] are hard to come by, and what they have is at ridiculous $$$ [i mean a 1x3x6' is $5 bucks ... and they are not the premiums ... nor are they straight

Compromise ... like so many things lately

2. Earlier today I sent my REW file to the guy on GS that will make me a 'test Filter' to try out [the Room is not finished so] and I'm more than curious to hear what this convolution correction will sound like. The Guy seems to have plenty experience with most all these 'correction' packages. [and we share the same dislike for what Sonarworks is doing. [I'm running it at 12% correction just to do a little bump ... and that is about the max I can tolerate. It just kills the overall sound].

Well ... back to designing the Clouds. I have a different idea how I want to make them. As open on all sides as possible, and as lite/secure as I can. Will document as I go.

As for the Tube Traps I built last year ... I don't know what happened to the pictures. Maybe I didn't take any ... I just don't know or remember [Vertigo sucks].

Well ... that's all the News that fit to print. And continued Thanks Glenn for guiding me through all this.

Sincerely.
RJH

[RJHollins]

Working on my new design Ceiling Clouds.

Making them as 'open air' as possible, with all 6 sides open.

Also trying out a different type of 'fabric' ... it's called 'Landscaping Cloth'. It's said to allow water and air through ... but not the Weeds

Most important, making sure that no fiberglass particles can get out. It was recommended by a DIY'er who said they've done realworld testing ... and it works.

Some of the testing I've done seems to bare out too.

anyway ... I did a test assemble the other nite, filling the Cloud with KNAUF rigid into the 2' x 4' x 8" form [actually 9.5" to account for the wood frame].


I was kinda surprise at the overall weight. Nothing like the Hardbacked Clouds, but still. This made me wonder ...

Is there a 'structural formula' used to determine the proper point for the EYE Bolts locations ? [4 of them] That would give the least stress of the weight hanging from the ceiling for the Cloud frame itself ?

The Eye Bolts are going on the 'Long Leg' of the frame. Leg length is 4 feet.

I was lifting the frame with my fingers at, like 8" from the end ... then 10", then 12". Still, wondered if there was some math formula to confirm what I felt weightwise.

I'll post pics once I get them off the iPhone.

Thanks for any insights !

[RJHollins]

Got a few pics.

Top and bottom frame built with 1x2

Fabric stapled

Then using drywall corner bead

Frames 'burgandy stain' drying in the garage

That's all to show at the moment ....

[RJHollins]

update:

Went ahead and stained the Top Frames ... so glad I did this out in the garage. They said it to be low odor ... but it still stinks

Also bought some 3/4" molding that I'll use around the edges to cover the staples. Still yet to stain those ... but oh my ... the cost for
simple, plain molding actually the cost of any of these materials today

So while the 'stinkin' is going on ... I was planning how to wrap the sides of these clouds, using the same Landscaping fabric.
If I cut a length of, say, 4' x 13 feet ... and then cut that into 12" x 13 ft strips ... I can do a wrap around the 2' x 4' panel, and have only one seam.
I think this will work. So I put together a jig to help cut these accurately.

Fortunately, this fabric cuts easily, sliding scissors or utility knife through ... and there is no fraying of the edges. This is really nice fabric.
Wish I had know about it earlier for other builds.

That's it for now .....

[RJHollins]

More progress slowly happening.

My good friend came over to help cut a 4' x 14' run of this landscape fabric into 12" x 14' strips. I'm hoping I can wrap all 4 sides with one strip, with only a single seam. That's the plan anyways.

But first ... time to start putting the Cloud pieces together.

Laying out the rigid KNAUF on the bottom frame

Top frame placed with 'Jed Clampetts' to hold everything together.

Clouds fasten together. A bit of overhang happening. Will have to squeeze them up. I'm using up some of the stash of triangled cuts from a chunky corner bass trap. Stuff is expensive and hard to find now ... ain't gonna waste it.

With the 3 clouds I've been able to build, the next step [tomorrow ?] will be to wrap the sides.
The cover molding has been stained and stinkin' up the garage.

I also have 6 'sticks' that have been stained, and plan to add those on the 4' legs to tie the top and bottom frames. Probably not necessary, but there is a bit of play in the center that I can tighten up. In addition, as things have it, the length of the molding would almost fit with one 8' piece ... almost So these support strips [actually paint sticks] will give me a little extra. [did I mention how expensive molding is ! Glad I'm not building a house ].

Well ... that's about it for today.

[gullfo]

i'm really liking the craftpersonship going on. very nice.

[RJHollins]

alrighty then ... this is from my post over at GS.

Had some time, so got to work on them there Clouds.

I wrapped all the sides with the 12"x14' strips that we cut from the main 4' roll.
Due to the spread of the fiberglass, it was a bit to get the fabric smooth, even ... but we got it stapled in.

I installed a center support on the 4' sides. Definitely stiffened it up. So that was good.

Then it was laying in the molding to cover the staples ... make it look nicer.

These Clouds are going to be, some 8' in the ceiling ... so not gonna be a major visual ... but after cutting all the molding
to fit, the ends are needing a stain update/ touch-up. [probably tomorrow]

Anyway ... they came out alright.

As I was putting them together, I was doing some 'absorption' tests with my voice, and my radio. They do dry out the sound ...

Here's a fast photo of them sitting outside my workroom.

After the touchups, I need to purchase 2 mounting boards [thinking 1x3"] that mount into the ceiling joist.

I'm thinking to pre-install the Eyebolts [with the other side flush ... somehow]. That way, it may be easier to then just hook the S-clips
on the Chain to hang the Clouds. That's the initial idea.

I'll still need to hire out to do that ... but I will have a question or three as to the starting point placements, spacing, and hanging depths.

That's all the news that's fit to print.

Thanks for looking over the shoulder. Much appreciated.

RJ

[RJHollins]

Question Glenn.

Just to confirm the distance the Clouds are hanging from the ceiling.

From your Design:

The very Front Cloud is: 10-3/4" off the ceiling to the top of the Cloud.

The Mid, Back Clouds are: 4-3/8" off the ceiling.

Am I getting this measurement correct ?

Issue: and I did NOT include this in my initial SketchUP ....

In the center of the ceiling, I have a light fixture. It is one of those standard bedroom lights, and looks to stick down about 6".

I'd prefer to leave the light as is [unless that's a NO] ... but it would mean hanging that Cloud lower than your spec.

I need to buy some additional Chain ... and I'm not sure how much.

Secondly ... I'm thinking to have 'extra' chain in place, should they need to be lowered ... or tilted.

Here's a pic of that light.

Thanks for any clarification Glenn

RJHollins [Up All Nite Studio]